What's up with Canada?

[Gonz]

The only re-writing of history I see is trying to downplay the role the US played in defeating Nazi Germany. Western Europe was in shambles, mostly owned by Germany. The UK was on it's last leg by the time we hit your shores. That is well documented & well known to anybody who hasn't studied the US SUX french version of history. The Soviet Union was a formidable opponent & surprised Germany. Had Hitler been able to focus more on them instead of working out plans to stop the US invasion he'd have eentually beaten them.

funding madmen has ever been a popular US pastime

Now if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black

 

[Camelyn]

The only re-writing of history I see is trying to downplay the role the US played in defeating Nazi Germany. Western Europe was in shambles, mostly owned by Germany. The UK was on it's last leg by the time we hit your shores. That is well documented & well known to anybody who hasn't studied the US SUX french version of history. The Soviet Union was a formidable opponent & surprised Germany. Had Hitler been able to focus more on them instead of working out plans to stop the US invasion he'd have eentually beaten them.

Ok seriously dude.
Who exactly is downplaying who's role in WWII? Have you not just prior to this post been arguing that the US won WWII and that all other participants had a negligible impact on the outcome except to contribute to the body count?

And now you say: (and I quote) "The Soviet Union was a formidable opponent & surprised Germany. Had Hitler been able to focus more on them instead of working out plans to stop the US invasion he'd have eentually beaten them"

So by your very own words, you are acknowledging the fact that maybe, just maybe, this was a war that was won by the participation of *all* countries who declared war, fought and died? A war that could not have been one by any one country alone?

I wonder if we can agree on that one point.

I am not downplaying anyone's role Gonz. Are you?

 

[Gonz]

Post 31 & 35

 

[Oz]

The only re-writing of history I see is trying to downplay the role the US played in defeating Nazi Germany. Western Europe was in shambles, mostly owned by Germany. The UK was on it's last leg by the time we hit your shores. That is well documented & well known to anybody who hasn't studied the US SUX french version of history. The Soviet Union was a formidable opponent & surprised Germany. Had Hitler been able to focus more on them instead of working out plans to stop the US invasion he'd have eentually beaten them.

I think Leslie was right.....it's scary......but the proof is in the posting.

Gonz......I dunno which version of the history of WW2 (or in fact, 1930 onwards) you've been reading.......but I think you should get your backside back to the library.

You knowledge of that time is shockingly inadequite

 

[PT]

Now that is a statement that I think is way off base, and I'll tell you why.

When you go to foreign countries, including Canada, you always hear that term bandied about like it's fact, but the people spewing that rhetoric have to remember one thing...Their existence as free countries was bought, and paid for, by the blood of US soldiers. The peace they take for granted is there because the US was, and is, there to protect them. It's not arrogance to expect some thanks from time to time, but it is arrogant to believe that no thanks are neccesary. It's not arrogance to offer help when it's needed, but it is arrogance to accept that help, and then deny the helpers so much as one iota of respect. The countries that have never accepted US aid and comfort are the only ones who can possibly say that we are arrogant, and those places are very few indeed. Next time you go out into your world, look around and think about how much the US has accomplished in our short time of existence, and ask yourself where your country would be if we didn't exist. Ask yourself where your lifestyle would be, and how much freedom you'd actually have if we didn't exist, and then say who is arrogant. It's not us, PT.

So Um, you were saying?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Yeah.....yer the only fuckers that ever raised a gun to help anyone aint'cha?

Go visit a couple of hundred thousand wargraves of British sevicemen...then go visit the australian ones.......the candaian ones...oh and the rest of the countries of the free world......finally visit the american ones, and check the dates on them compared to the rest.

Don't preach about the arrogance of others while practising it yourself.

Actually...yes. Since you wish to bring that up, I have a suggestion. Look at your history and ask yourself if the UK would've survived without the US. The answer is a resounding no, and you know it. As for Canada...how much of your budget for your socila programs would be gone if you didn't have the US on your southern borders. As for France, who was subjugated by Germany, and Australia, which heavily relied on the US keepinfgJapan occupied so that they were relatively safe, they are also in the debt of the US. Please not that I have not belittled the sacrifice of your countrymen in your time of trouble, so why do you belittle the fact that you were losing the war, and, without the US, you would now be speaking German? It's ashame, really, that you don't understand that the US didn't even have to come to your aid. Hell, we had a fight on our hands with the Japanese, and we let that sit until we helped you straighten out the mess you were in. I'll say this again...I's not the US who is arrogant. It's Europe, and, now it seems, Canada.

 

[Oz]

Actually...yes. Since you wish to bring that up, I have a suggestion. Look at your history and ask yourself if the UK would've survived without the US. The answer is a resounding no, and you know it. As for Canada...how much of your budget for your socila programs would be gone if you didn't have the US on your southern borders. As for France, who was subjugated by Germany, and Australia, which heavily relied on the US keepinfgJapan occupied so that they were relatively safe, they are also in the debt of the US. Please not that I have not belittled the sacrifice of your countrymen in your time of trouble, so why do you belittle the fact that you were losing the war, and, without the US, you would now be speaking German? It's ashame, really, that you don't understand that the US didn't even have to come to your aid. Hell, we had a fight on our hands with the Japanese, and we let that sit until we helped you straighten out the mess you were in. I'll say this again...I's not the US who is arrogant. It's Europe, and, now it seems, Canada.

Read my previous posts Gato......the answers are all there dear boy

Why is it you feel the need to ignore the facts of what happened during WW2 before the USA joined the war?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Read my previous posts Gato......the answers are all there dear boy

Why is it you feel the need to ignore the facts of what happened during WW2 before the USA joined the war?

I did. I only ask that credit is given where credit is due. I have nothing but respect for the armed forces of the UK. They went through a meatgrinder. I only ask for respect in turn, for the sacrifices of the US in the past, and for that, we are called arrogant. I never ignored the time before the US entered WWII. It seems that most folks forgot what happened after. Not only did our government get involved in that war, we also got heavily involved in the aftermath. Mostly because our infrastructure was the only one not wrecked, but that's what happens in a war.

 

[Camelyn]

I did. I only ask that credit is given where credit is due. I have nothing but respect for the armed forces of the UK. They went through a meatgrinder. I only ask for respect in turn, for the sacrifices of the US in the past, and for that, we are called arrogant. I never ignored the time before the US entered WWII. It seems that most folks forgot what happened after. Not only did our government get involved in that war, we also got heavily involved in the aftermath. Mostly because our infrastructure was the only one not wrecked, but that's what happens in a war.

No.

You are called arrogant because you make comments like those I quoted in my first post.

 

[Gato_Solo]

No.

You are called arrogant because you make comments like those I quoted in my first post.

Funny how you point that out Camelyn, but I have this to say...

1. Germany was winning WWII when the US got involved.

 

[Camelyn]

Funny how you point that out Camelyn, but I have this to say...

1. Germany was winning WWII when the US got involved.

um......

And? This has what to do with either US arrogance or international participation in WWII???

 

[Camelyn]

I did. I only ask that credit is given where credit is due. I have nothing but respect for the armed forces of the UK. They went through a meatgrinder. I only ask for respect in turn, for the sacrifices of the US in the past, and for that, we are called arrogant. I never ignored the time before the US entered WWII. It seems that most folks forgot what happened after. Not only did our government get involved in that war, we also got heavily involved in the aftermath. Mostly because our infrastructure was the only one not wrecked, but that's what happens in a war.

Actually, I'm going to add:

Not once, anywhere, did I say that the US contribution to WWII was not both needed and essential to victory. Not once did I say anything that disrespected the US military and US sacrifice. Read back. Who was disrespecting who??? Canada was only good for adding to the body count? That's respect? Show me where I made a similar comment? What are you arguing Gato, and whom are you defending?

My entire argument has been to try to point out that the US did *not* win WWII all by its lonesome. And to ask for the respect that the men from *my* country deserve for their sacrifice. Or is the fact that there were only 39000 of them make them irrelevant??

 

[Gato_Solo]

Actually, I'm going to add:

Not once, anywhere, did I say that the US contribution to WWII was not both needed and essential to victory. Not once did I say anything that disrespected the US military and US sacrifice. Read back. Who was disrespecting who??? Canada was only good for adding to the body count? That's respect? Show me where I made a similar comment? What are you arguing Gato, and whom are you defending?

My entire argument has been to try to point out that the US did *not* win WWII all by its lonesome. And to ask for the respect that the men from *my* country deserve for their sacrifice. Or is the fact that there were only 39000 of them make them irrelevant??

I never said Canada was only good for adding to the bodycount. Where did you get that from?

 

[Camelyn]

It's pointing out the fact that we put damned near as much on the line for Britain as Britain did themselves. Had the US not shown up you'd be speaking German. Had Canada & Austrailia not shown up there'd have been less blood spilled.

No, you didn't Gonz did. Which is why I asked " What are you arguing and whom are you defending"

This debate came about because of a whose body count was bigger than whose comment as well as some comments that belittled the contribution of international forces to the war effort. Which is again why I asked that you read back. Because no where was the US contribution belittled, simply the argument that it was the *only* contribution of any significance was called into question.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Again I ask: You are saying the US declared war to help Europe and Britain? Not because of a threat to US soil and US freedom?

And again, are we re-writing history?

Yep. We actually declared war on Japan first. We should've attacked Japan only, but we decided to help Europe first because the Germany declared war on the US on 11 DEC 1941 as a direct result of US forces firing on German warships in the North Atlantic (convoy protection), and ceasing German merchant shipping, starting on 11 SEP 1941. Canada was already involved due to your ties with the UK. Here's the message. We actually declared war on Japan three days earlier, so you can decide for yourself whether we (the US) actually wanted to help Europe, or were just picking a fight.

 

[AlladinSane]

 

[Gonz]

I found what I believe to be a clearer way to say what I meant

Without all the "smaller " armies, the allies may have lost. Without the US the allies would have lost.

 

[ris]

I found what I believe to be a clearer way to say what I meant

Without all the "smaller " armies, the allies may have lost. Without the US the allies would have lost.

perhaps there lies the part the other allies have the problem with, the arrogance of stature that serves to belittle the coalition of armies into 'we did more than you did and you should be damn well grateful until we say otherwise'.

the usa provided vital arms, support, troops and knowhow during both world wars. they were not the decisive force. i do not believe one single country was, and each tiny scrap of support was vital.

without the victories of the royal air force in 1940 the uk would have fallen, and they were aided by polish airmen, czechs, french and many others from occupied europe. without the victories in north africa the german army wouldn't have retreated into italy and begun their retreat.
without the work of the special operations executive and resitance movements in france and the low countries much valuable intelligence would have never been sourced. if my meory serves me the enigma machines so vital to codebreaking were taken by british ships and coded at bletchley.

without the russian armies starting the fightback in 1943 the war would have dragged on and on - whether the uk were prevented from invasion by us troops is an unknown, the air victory in 1940 turned the nazi eye elsewhere. without the austalians, new zealanders and british in burma the japanese would have gone further.

every country that contributed, however small, was vital - and should be equally praised. without the tiny cogs the biggest machines break down. as we will never know history without the us help, and all the others, then supposition as to what may have been is irrellevant. we succeeded, all of us, and we should give thanks for all those who fought and served, regardless of how big their army, navy or air force.

 

[Gonz]

Perhaps if the modeern day citizens of the allied countries (and other) decided to quit making the USA the scapegoat, blaming us for all the ill's & begin showing some appreciation for how we help everybody everytime something goes wrong & how we don't demand reparations for such then some of us would be less likely to get bent out of shape.

 

[catocom]

Perhaps if the modeern day citizens of the allied countries (and other) decided to quit making the USA the scapegoat, blaming us for all the ill's & begin showing some appreciation for how we help everybody everytime something goes wrong & how we don't demand reparations for such then some of us would be less likely to get bent out of shape.

That's what I like about Italy. They seem to me to be genuinely appreciative. IMO