Abortion (Pro-life/pro-choice/both)?

[BeardofPants]

To imply that males have a less valid opinion than females on this issue is damned insulting....at best.

HomeLAN, you misunderstand me. My point with regards to STFU were to do specifically with undergoing an abortion from a woman's perspective. Men can't understand that experience because of physicality. I never meant to imply that men can't experience trauma, but of course, it is a different sort.

Claire, I've undergone an abortion as well. I had one at sixteen, and one at twenty. I don't regret my choices. One incident was from when I was a drugged out wreck, and one was from a pill cock-up (antibiotics rendered the pill useless). Both could have been prevented. In NZ a woman has to undergo two counseling sessions, and the termination has to occur before twelve weeks, so I had them around the 10-11 week mark. Thank you for sharing with us.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

ClaireBear , Do you check to see if there’s water in a pool before you dive in?

Yes...

So would you be willing to accept the resposibility for a child when you have the mental age of a nine year old but that didn't stop the male warden in the home from raping you?

YES, I do. As a tax payer, I would have to pay for the child and the parent for the rest of the mother’s life –or- until an adoption family was found. I would also gladly pay for the prosecuting and incaceration of the Warden. (case by case assessment)

Unless Warden implies “special home for the retarded” (some barbaric UK shut-in facility) In that case the mother is in a home for people that can’t take care of themselves; remove the child out of the institution and place it with an adopted family for sure.

In the US we don’t lock up “the challenged” we work with them to provide what we call “Independent living” where they live on their own, in their own apartment often with children, and a job, with a support team to assist then to deal with life’s troubles.

Would you take on the care of a child when you've been using hypodermic class A drugs for the best part of 5 years and will continue to do so through out pregnancy and probably (hopefully if it lives!) the child's life!?

I have seen it done many times, I have seen lives change with a the birth of child. I’ve seen terrible situations too; I have seen children die very young because of the mothers “choices”.

In the US we don’t have socialized medicine, yet. We screen the mother and will remove the child from harm if it’s deemed there is harm to be had


NO, I wouldn’t be dumb enough to stay in an abusive relationship with person who stabs cats in chronic “rage” episodes.

Would you see a child being brought up in a home with no heat, light, running water or amenities to wash bathe and eat. Where there's no money for food.. only alcohol?

No, again I have seen this more times than I care think about. In the US you can’t live with a child under those conditions. There is no need for anyone to be in that condition if they don’t choose to..

Would you see a child live its life with no physical or emotional response to the world... in constant pain but unable to express this... constantly going into seizure... and through the perfect hearing they have repeatedly hear his/her mother crying for the husband "who couldn't take it any longer?"

Wrong! Again in the US we have an infrastructure just for this situation. If you know about this and you do not report it, you’re evil.

We don’t fully know the mental state of these people experience, what you describe is comatose or brain dead.

You would call that saving a life????? In fact are any of those situations lives?

YES, I would call it saving a life. By your ideals we should kill elderly and the less fortunate, kids with terminal cancer.

Great people often come from less than attractive backgrounds and most of do live. Ask one of the people who have actually survived an abortion if they would’ve rather died as their mother intended.

You don't know til you're in that position... as a man you will NEVER know! Posting biased, bigotted, overly dramatised "facts" on a Off Topic forum... isn't a crusade for humanity!

Ignorance is bliss isn’t it? As long as you don’t know the truth you will glee-fully walk around pretending your mistakes had no consequences (for you) as if it never happened.

I know it feels better not knowing what really happened to your child, but the truth is much different than you believe.

Maybe you should not take every thing on face value... and question and investigate before making snap decisions... as a pro-lifer surely thats your aim... why not follow your own advice!?

*see final statement.

Love certainly has nothing to do with health and aesthetics although setting that aside it is often easier to understand why some women are forced to make the decision which is best for them.

An uneducated decision at best, learning the fact from someone that lives the misery; misery loves company, and helps the advice giver to validate their own mistakes.

There is also no need to arrogantly and agressively make assumptions about my RL and experiences...

I was simply stating that yes! Your children are happy and healthy... (you brought "loving" into the equation although I don't actually see its relevancy I was merely answering you in context)... but what if they were suffering from a disability that caused them the pain that is described in the above post?

I would venture to guess that your RLE has been miserable by your own choices; would you’ve rather been aborted then to have the chance to live a miserable life?

Is it a real life for them? If you love them could you stand it to see them suffer? Tell me what are your views on euthenasia?

Suicide is wrong, if they are truly intent on it, they will succeed.

Killing an Alzheimer patient, NO. Look at §166.033, Health and Safety Code

And in connection with my "blind" comment... as a male you never get the chance to feel a baby move within you... you never breast feed... you don't get the physicality of parenthood. The decision concerning abortion isn't an easy one to make... it isn't a black and white issue!

The psychological and emotional problems that can be associated with actually giving birth to a very badly disabled or disfigured child... knowing you were its gateway to a life of probable (as you would believe in your emotional state!) suffering, torture, humiliation and frustration are legion... self loathing is just the tip of the iceberg. she will love the child but that guilt... if she isn't a strong person could do untold damage.

Now that is a shame... as someone who calls themself a "professur" ... a teacher? an educator? researcher? You make rash decisions very easily...

Why simply dismiss someone for not sharing the same ideas or values as you? Don't cover your ears... turn your back and walk away from the chance to explore other avenues of ideals...

And anyhoo... If we all had your attitude to discussion... I would NEVER pm you as you don't share my beliefs!

So you chastise me for making ‘assumptions’. You are basing your arguments on your own experiences of misery that are mostly direct result of your choices. Should you have been aborted?

I dare say: you assume too much.

I used to not care about abortion either way.


After thousands of hours of related education, study, and research. 6,000 hours of internship, +10,000 hours of application of practice, and currently writing curriculum for graduate and PhD level education for the Cal State University System - - - I know a little about of which I speak.

 

[Gonz]

*would like to politely request that we perhaps cease and desist with the pointless and hate-inciting abortion threads*

Oh hush

 

[Gonz]

Would you see a child being brought up in a home with no heat, light, running water or amenities to wash bathe and eat.

OK, who gets to kill the Africans & who gets to kill the Asians and who gets to kill the South Americans?

 

[ClaireBear]

I would venture to guess that your RLE has been miserable by your own choices; would you’ve rather been aborted then to have the chance to live a miserable life?

Then you're sadly mistaken! I'm a very healthy happy middle class young woman... who can see and respects both sides of any issue!

So you chastise me for making ‘assumptions’. You are basing your arguments on your own experiences of misery that are mostly direct result of your choices. Should you have been aborted?

I am basing my argument on known sistuations within the UK.... and we have much much much better social care/security and provision than you guys!

These are not my personal experiences... I am as I said a happy healthy midle class young woman! Butthese are issues that I have encountered in the news and from socialisation.... I state them here not as excuses but as the flip side to the woman who uses abortion as a form of contraception!

After thousands of hours of related education, study, and research. 6,000 hours of internship, +10,000 hours of application of practice, and currently writing curriculum for graduate and PhD level education for the Cal State University System - - - I know a little about of which I speak.

*edited by Leslie - no personal attacks please* when you carry out research do you only embrace the results which comply with your hypothesis?

If you were really a true researcher and willing to expand your ideals and knowledge... I would have thought you would have been one of the first to embrace my experience and pm me...

*edited by Leslie - no personal attacks please*

Now I'm sick and tired of this thread... you can't fight against ignorance you only end up enraging it!

 

[ClaireBear]

Now some one please lock this sucker up before it churns out into a 13 page blood bath!

CB

 

[ResearchMonkey]

No need to embrace you, I don't rescue emotions, I let them run their course.

You are OK with your abortion, you refuse to glance into the reality of it, fine. As long as you don't have to face the trauma you can continue to feel nothing more than you already feel.

Great you're sourcing the news for your RLE.

I am sourceing non-recoverable traumas that I have discussed with women to depths far deeper than your able to comprehend. (at this point in your life)

So, I have already conceded that there occasions where abortion may be the correct course of action.

What about the other 95%? Can you explain to me how the rights of the woman supercede the rights of an individual that has no voice? Can you explain how the child is nothing more than tissue? Can you tell me how the child does not feel the pain? Can you explain the neuroactivity that happens during the death of a fetus?

As long as that child has no voice; I and millions of other people will speak for them.

I see your anger, it blinds you form even considering the possibilty that aborted children feel what is happening to them. Its nothing more than your coping skill, ego-defense, what keeps you from having empathy for your child.

Have a look at 10.75 weeks

http://www.createhealth.org/11weeks.html

and

http://www.createhealth.org/25weeks.html

Those my dear, are people.



None of the "fruit of my loins" have ever been aborted.

. . . you can't fight against ignorance you only end up enraging it!

Rage on my dear.

 

[ClaireBear]

No need to embrace you, I don't rescue emotions, I let them run their course.

You are OK with your abortion, you refuse to glance into the reality of it, fine. As long as you don't have to face the trauma you can continue to feel nothing more than you already feel.

Great you're sourcing the news for your RLE.

I am sourceing non-recoverable traumas that I have discussed with women to depths far deeper than your able to comprehend. (at this point in your life)

So, I have already conceded that there occasions where abortion may be the correct course of action.

What about the other 95%? Can you explain to me how the rights of the woman supercede the rights of an individual that has no voice? Can you explain how the child is nothing more than tissue? Can you tell me how the child does not feel the pain? Can you explain the neuroactivity that happens during the death of a fetus?

As long as that child has no voice; I and millions of other people will speak for them.

I see your anger, it blinds you form even considering the possibilty that aborted children feel what is happening to them. Its nothing more than your coping skill, ego-defense, what keeps you from having empathy for your child.

Have a look at 10.75 weeks

http://www.createhealth.org/11weeks.html

and

http://www.createhealth.org/25weeks.html

Those my dear, are people.



None of the "fruit of my loins" have ever been aborted.




Rage on my dear.

Its individuals like you that make the rest of the World (especially us Brits) role around on the floor laughing our asses off at the American people!!!

Now kindly decist... this thread is no longer informative or enlightening its become an almost witch hunt against those who do not feel the same way as you.

Kindly keep your *Edited for personal attack... Sam*
... you're not going to upset me or make me realise the "shocking truth" of my actions... nor are you going to resurect the thousands of aborted feotus' which take place each week... so why bother?

Again... ADMIN LOCK THIS THREAD! This is too tedius to allow its progression!

BTW "nice" website.... aye! There's nowt stranger than folk!!!! (Is there a "look at my family's dirty laundry" link on there?) (jk!)

 

[ResearchMonkey]

So you’re saying you can’t answer those questions.

Name calling, making ridicules assertions, and derogatory remarks do not make for civil discussion. Certainly not a good argument, but it may make you feel superior in some fashion.

OK, I am redneck (if that makes you happy); I also have a slight, at best, Christian twinge.

I am not trying to save dead people; I am making the case for the ones that have yet to be conceived. I do not intend on thinking this is a lost cause nor do I think I will change your views. What I do hope is this: That someone will have several degrees difference in their thinking when a young woman asks them for advice about having an abortion.

I do however find it interesting that you are calling, for second time, to silence the opposition to your views thru a judicial intervention (the mods). Another silenced voice?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

BTW "nice" website.... aye! There's nowt stranger than folk!!!! (Is there a "look at my family's dirty laundry" link on there?) (jk!)

You're a real sweet-heart arent you?

 

[ClaireBear]

You're a real sweet-heart arent you?

Hey! Its a joke to lighten the already way to heavy context! What you got? A humourectomy!? But I must admit I find "family" websites a tad "shadow of knife in the shower curtain!"

I am actually a sweetheart!

As I have repeatedly said.... I think this thread should be closed because this kind of discussion only ever culminates in name calling, flaming and blaming... what starts as a civil discusion deteriorates rapidly... and I for one wouldn't like to see that happen as I have extreme views (from PERSONAL experience) on this topic and will be pushed into the emotional behaviour and look like the "bad guy"

So you're hoping that a woman in search of advice will be able to see both sides of the coin? SO DO I! I had access to that as should everyone... But i'm afraid that... well... she wouldn't get that from you would she?... you are extreme pro-life... (thats the impression I get!) Waving images of 10 1/2 week old feotuses and banging on about the state caring for unwanted children... is all well and good but do you understand the pros of abortion?

Look... just leave this discussion.... its not a black and white issue there is no right or wrong answer.. we'll just end up going round and round in circles... I for one am about to report this thread for closure!

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Your childish semantics are getting tiresome.

Getting advice from me has two sides to it; is it personal advice or professional advice.

Unfortunately, when it comes to this type of advice I can’t let my personal feelings interfere with process. It is not my decision in the end.

Which very well may explain why I hit hard here? I am not bound by ethics on these forums.

... is all well and good but do you understand the pros of abortion?

Convenience?

No, I don't know. Why dont you please explain them.


(go ahead, report the thread, report me)

 

[ClaireBear]

Convenience?

Good God! I shouldn't even grace that mindless retort with a response...

But against my better judgement.. just to shut you up!


I was raped by my tutor whilst living in halls at University... I was 18... he got me drunk and I don't remember much and so I couldn't say whether it had been concentual or not and couldn't prosecute... I was a virgin at the time I doubt it was concentual.

I went a tad derranged after that trying to convince myself everything was fine... sleeping around, drinking, taking drugs etc etc. I was forced to take a year out of uni due to emotional trauma... and it was on this down ward spiral of behaviour that I started seeing a guy.

He was 14 years my senior and a recovering schizophrenic who had been sectioned for 3 years.. he was unemployed and had a common law estranged wife and two kids... I thought I loved him (the drink and the drugs I guess and my immaturity!)

I got pregnant and it was as he was trying to persuade me to keep "his baby" I realised "No! I don't want this!" I didn't want to bring up my child in a scruffy part of town in a dirty damp two bed squat... with a mentally ill, violent father and a drunken mother who'd thrown away an opportunity of a degree and a good life... but I couldn't return to complete my studies with a child!!! I knew keeping the baby would shame my family even more and my rape and behaviour since had done that already.

So I had a chemical abortion. I was 19... I have to be honest though... my then partner did agree to it eventually and he even supported me through it... I stayed with him a little longer after that then the violence got worse and he started to self harm again so I left him and that life behind me and went back to uni... I now have a Ba Primary Education and looking for a Primary (Kindergarten) position.

I don't regret the decision I know it was for the best... my child would have had no life only an existance in the state I was in... my next child I know will have every advantage that i can provide and I think that is fair.

In the first week of July each year... I buy flowers for my room... it would be the week in which approximately my girl or boy would have been born... their birthday... it just helps me cope. I never want to forget what could have been my first son or daughter.

But I guess you'd say that was an abortion of "convenience"

Now... lets all move on...


I'm reporting this thread....

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Good God! I shouldn't even grace that mindless retort with a response...

I'm reporting this thread....

. . . So is that a no?

• I don’t need to have cancer to understand the pain of a man dying from Melanoma.

• 
  [*]I don’t have to get Alzheimer’s have compassion and empathy for the woman being taken by it.

• 
  [*]I don’t have to lose a child to understand the grief of the family over the loss of their child in an accident.

• 
  [*]Because I am a person, a father, and a son, I have every right to feel for the unborn children.
  

• 
  [*]Because I am a man does not disqualify me from understanding the issues from the child right to live.
  

• 
  [*]Because a unborn child is out of site does not mean it doesn’t have the same feelings and emotion you have.

• 
  [*]I understand there are complex issues and responsibilities bringing a life into the world.
  

• I also understand there are grave consequences in choosing to deny the unborn child to right to live.

Make no mistake about my opinion, the child’s right to live supersedes the woman’s choice to kill it for her own selfish or what-ever reasons ~95% of the time.



-how the snitching going? (no need to close this thread)

[edit] I see you added to your post, I will again reply, now we are getting somewhere[/edit]

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Ok, I’m not ripping into you here, no matter; we can’t change the past (you know that better than I).

Work with me here. Below the moments grief you often feel at some level, do you have conflicting emotions? The “I did what was best for me” and the “I wonder what he/she would have looked like?” these are both apart of you.

By no means an I stating any of this as fact, these are more like questions.

[the obvious]



The July flowers, the celebration of what could have been and the grief of what it is not. There is apart of you that has painful regrets.

With or with-out the child there are no promises of happiness and prosperity. Children are a burden and complicate life and take a huge commitment and many sacrifices. They also give one focus in life. That is the trade-off isn’t it

[not so obvious, just observations]

Why young children, Kindergarten? Do you feel some maternal instincts that developed with no child of possession?

How does the “next” child relate to the” July” child to you, is their some connection? When you think of one do you think of the other?

[/end]

dont lock this now Les Grrrrrrrrr
I got more comming up

 

[ResearchMonkey]

I will only speak from my own experiences of having children in my life. I know that "you" and "we" are not the same.

[begin autobiography]

When we found out my girlfriend was pregnant we were living in my apartment with no power, lots of hard-core partying and fun all the time, not much reality. She was a fairly civil gal, I was an animal).

We discussed abortion as an option after a week or so we decided it was worth the risk to try our hand at being parents.

To keep it short: It wasn’t easy. She had nothing to begin with, I had very little.

We jumped over a broom-stick for our wedding rite.

We worked opposite of each other until we saved enough money for a baby sitter and tuition.

We were so poor that on our daughters 3rd Christmas we had to buy our Christmas dinner and $25 in gifts from her change she had collected in her bank, we lived on it for week (which fortunately had over $100 in it) we had 2 children by this time.

We had no car for 3 years; we rode the bus (here most everyone has a car) Finally another student gave us a car that his mother had wrecked 7 years before.

I remember walking to the store in the middle of the night, freezing rain, to get food for the baby with pennies and nickels. 1.7 miles each way

I admit it was the toughest thing I ever had to do. We sacrificed our lives for the sake of the child(ren).

We now have 5 children, the last child my wife had a 20-30% chance of sudden death by pulmonary embolism due to a DVT (thrombosis).

We chose to ride the risk. We now have Olivia.

[/end "I stayed up way too late" rant]





I know you can’t go back, you are probably very happy as you are. You have your system to cope with it, but one day that may change.

I just hope someday you can help a young woman not have to go through the loneliest pain a person can have.


(BTW, I was born in the first week in July, and I was adopted not long after that )

 

[Gonz]

with a mentally ill, violent father

Who was chosen to be bedded by whom? I have no sympathy for decisions made my a lucid individual. Something about beds & lying in them.

I'm reporting this thread....

Again... ADMIN LOCK THIS THREAD! This is too tedius to allow its progression!

BTW "nice" website.... aye! There's nowt stranger than folk!!!! (Is there a "look at my family's dirty laundry" link on there?) (jk!)

Now some one please lock this sucker up before it churns out into a 13 page blood bath!

Interesting. You choose to participate in an open, honest debate about a very touchy subject yet when it interferes with your preconceived notions you wish it closed. Not around here deary.

 

[ClaireBear]

Ok, I’m not ripping into you here, no matter; we can’t change the past (you know that better than I).

Work with me here. Below the moments grief you often feel at some level, do you have conflicting emotions? The “I did what was best for me” and the “I wonder what he/she would have looked like?” these are both apart of you.

I do but I don't... there's always a niggle... mostly caused by(no offence) speaking to peope like you who feel the need to post the kind of pictures you have been.

My feelings are just a "what if?" kind of thing... common in every eventuality of life.

The July flowers, the celebration of what could have been and the grief of what it is not. There is apart of you that has painful regrets.

No.. the flowers aren't a way of showing a painful regret really.... to me its to make sure I don't forget or become hardened to what happended... not all women who go through abortion are hard emotioned calous serial "murderers"

With or with-out the child there are no promises of happiness and prosperity. Children are a burden and complicate life and take a huge commitment and many sacrifices. They also give one focus in life. That is the trade-off isn’t it

Yup... you're right but with myself and my partner being graduates and working in the public sector (He's a nurse I'm a teacher) our standard of living we would be able to provide for a child of our own would be so much greater than what I could have given then.

Children can be a burden... but that is the trade off like you say.. and it is worthwhile... as a teacher the affection I get from the children in my care is astronomical... the bond between parent and child? I can't even comprehend.

Why young children, Kindergarten? Do you feel some maternal instincts that developed with no child of possession?

How does the “next” child relate to the” July” child to you, is their some connection? When you think of one do you think of the other?

I'd wanted to teach since I was 11... a degree is the route into Primary education in Blighty so thats actually unrelated I was studying to teach young children before and continued after.

When I think of my prospective children... the ones (hopefully!) yet to have... I don't necessarily think of my "July" baby... sometimes I do sometimes I don't... but that may change once I'm actually pregnant.. I dunno!

I really don't mind answering your questions... if they are worded compasionately and correctly. But I would prefer it if we perhaps took the conversation to PM... I'd feel more comfortable that way!

 

[Professur]

I was raped by my tutor whilst living in halls at University... I was 18... he got me drunk and I don't remember much and so I couldn't say whether it had been concentual or not and couldn't prosecute... I was a virgin at the time I doubt it was concentual.

OMIGAWD

I was told to check back in, and that you'd found a sense of humour. That's damn funny. You were 18, and he got you drunk??!!?? What did he do? Hold you down and pour it down your throat? YOU got you drunk honey. And, if you don't remember it, don't have witnesses, and didn't press charges, don't call it rape. You don't know what it was.

I went a tad derranged after that trying to convince myself everything was fine... sleeping around, drinking, taking drugs etc etc. I was forced to take a year out of uni due to emotional trauma... and it was on this down ward spiral of behaviour that I started seeing a guy.

But this was all your tutor's fault. Couldn't be yours.

He was 14 years my senior and a recovering schizophrenic who had been sectioned for 3 years.. he was unemployed and had a common law estranged wife and two kids... I thought I loved him (the drink and the drugs I guess and my immaturity!)

Thought? I doubt thinking had much to do with it.

I got pregnant and it was as he was trying to persuade me to keep "his baby" I realised "No! I don't want this!" I didn't want to bring up my child in a scruffy part of town in a dirty damp two bed squat... with a mentally ill, violent father and a drunken mother who'd thrown away an opportunity of a degree and a good life... but I couldn't return to complete my studies with a child!!! I knew keeping the baby would shame my family even more and my rape and behaviour since had done that already.

ROFL all over again. You sleep with a married man, get pregnant by him, you you think that your rape might be a point of shame? You should be at the Just for Laughs festival.

So I had a chemical abortion. I was 19... I have to be honest though... my then partner did agree to it eventually and he even supported me through it... I stayed with him a little longer after that then the violence got worse and he started to self harm again so I left him and that life behind me and went back to uni... I now have a Ba Primary Education and looking for a Primary (Kindergarten) position.

Well, if you were looking to scare me, you did. Does anyone here really want someone who's past is this full of bad decisions involved in teaching children at all, least of all at this sensitive point in their lives? I sure don't. You stayed with him? After deciding that you wouldn't want to bring up a child in that environment? That it was bad enough that the child was better off dead than there?

I don't regret the decision I know it was for the best... my child would have had no life only an existance in the state I was in... my next child I know will have every advantage that i can provide and I think that is fair.

Whatever you say.

In the first week of July each year... I buy flowers for my room... it would be the week in which approximately my girl or boy would have been born... their birthday... it just helps me cope. I never want to forget what could have been my first son or daughter.

But no regrets, eh?

But I guess you'd say that was an abortion of "convenience"

I'd say your entire life is one of convenience.

Now... lets all move on...

Of course. Why deal with what you've already done. Ignore it, and move on.

I'm reporting this thread....

You do that, sweety.



And back on my ignore list. If you're really that fucked up, and not just playing, you've nothing I wanna hear. And if you are playing, you're not worth my time. Goodbye.

 

[MrBishop]

RM - I understand your feelings about abortion...you've made them obvious. How do you feel about the GVT intervening in the choice of women to have abortions?
Roe vs Wade -

a simple question. Do people have the right to chose what happens to their body?

*before you hit that reply button - I'm not about to argue at which point in the gestational cycle that the fetus should be considered a seperate being with their own rights - those vary from person to person and from scientist to scientist.*

**Please don't confuse autonomic responces to stimuli with 'feelings of pain' or terror, or even consciousness...it doesn't wash with everyone**