Basra

[A.B.Normal]

I wanna know who the Dumbass was that came up with the idea of the "Surrender Leaflets" ,They had to know with the Iraqis "honourable record " that this was going to come back to haunt them Now that they(leaflets) are out there ,unless they can rescind the message ,they are screwed either morally or lethally.Its quite obvious that there are elements of the army that aren't under a commmand/control of the Iraqi leadership and may take the message at face value .
If I were a conspiracy theorist ,I'd say the leaflets were printed knowing the Iraqi Military would use them for treachery ,giving a reason to abandon the "protect the Population"guarantee,while maintaining a "we tried honourably" stance.

 

[AlladinSane]

I don't believe I have ever typed the word "Brazil" on a discussion board. Would you like to step back into reality please?

Reality? Shit. You wouldn't have the faintest idea of the real fucking world pal.

Whatever though. I can't remember what country your from. Your comments were worded in such a way that you thought the only thing we were doing all of this was for Imperialistic reasons.

Since I'm the only brazillian here I just have to assume he's messing me with flav. In that case I'd like to point out that I just said I believe the reasons for the war were much more political than humanitarian. I never mentioned the word 'imperialism' or the sentence "Brazil's Next'.

 

[PostCode]

Ok. I got my messages mixed up. That's my fault. For that I'm sorry flav. No, I'm not messing with anyone like you assume. You know what happens when you start assuming things.....

 

[RD_151]

Well, I'm not taking sides here, but lets assume for a moment the US is the underdog. What if the situation were reversed? What if a massive overwhelming army was trying to overthrow our government, killing our families, and trying to impose their choices and their way of life upon us? Wouldn't you do everything and anything to preserve what you hold dear to you? These are human beings, not thoughless machines with out feelings and emotions. Ok, they aren't like us, their culture is different, but its still theirs, and they would like to keep it. Wouldn't you do the same in their shoes? Lets be honest for a moment! Would you care about the Geneva convention at that point, knowing that you can't possible win using the accepted methods of combat, and following traditional methods? Does anyone remember how the British viewed the tactics of 'Americans' during the revolutionary war?

I'm not choosing sides here, but place your self in their shoes and tell me you would rather sit back and let it happen. The media has told us they want to be 'liberated' but I can tell you, if the situation were reversed, if the US was the little guy, and some superpower was trying to 'liberate' us against our will, they would also say we were only waiting for our liberators to set us free! Come on, if you believe that, that we are liberating them, that we are there to 'set them free' then the propaganda machine is truly more effecitve than anyone could have hoped it to be. Well, whatever. I don't want to see people on either side killed, but at the same time, I'm not gonna pretend they aren't human. I know, for those fighting they aren't, they are targets, and the same view may be held by veterans and enlisted people. Ok, thats fine, but remember, they are human beings as well. I can't speak for you, but I think if I were them, and our nation was in the same position, I wouldn't feel bad about resorting to unconventional tactics! I know, you are gonna say, but Iraq is "evil" and the US is "good." Are we really the good guys? I guess the answer to that is relative isn't it?

 

[flavio]

The media has told us they want to be 'liberated' but I can tell you, if the situation were reversed, if the US was the little guy, and some superpower was trying to 'liberate' us against our will, they would also say we were only waiting for our liberators to set us free! Come on, if you believe that, that we are liberating them, that we are there to 'set them free' then the propaganda machine is truly more effecitve than anyone could have hoped it to be.

Postcode has given up all pretense of "liberating" them and would just like to see them all dead.

 

[RD_151]

The thing that shocks me most about some of this discussion is that We are the aggressors. The US is the one invading Iraq. We declared war on them. This, according to anyone you speak to is a preemptive war, one declared by us upon them. We are a massive superpower, and almost no country can hope to withstand an attack by the US without restoring to unconventional defensive strategies. Should we really be surprised this is happening? NO, we shouldn't. What we really should be surprise of is that a man who is supposed to have biological, chemical, and maybe even nuclear weapons is just sitting on them while his country is being 'liberated.' Yeah, I'm sure their just saving them for the grand finale huh ?(

Well, as I have said before, I'm indifferent. I don't care for the Iraqi regime, but some honesty in the matter may have given this a little more credibility. The cover story was never believeable. I give it about equal weight with that pycho who thinks its 'about the 'stargate.'

 

[samcurry]

you guys slay me....

 

[Gonz]

trying to overthrow our government, killing our families, and trying to impose their choices and their way of life upon us?

1)yes, a dictatorship-they have no choice in government

2)We're taking extraordinary steps to avoid civilian, and to a point, military, casualties

3)How, exactly, does one impose freedom on somebody?

Honestly, if I were living under a repressive, murdering regime & couldn't get out, I'd hope the world came to help. Well, not France, they'd bring snails & chopped liver.

 

[Squiggy]

How, exactly, does one impose freedom on somebody?

Yes! Please tell me! I've been trying to do that to my son for a few years now...

 

[Gonz]

We're thinkers, debaters & arguers, not magicians

 

[RD_151]

It's easier to say that from the other side, when you are outside look in. Isn't it? As you know, people tend to be very opposed to change, especially in these matters. As for avoiding casulties and killing civillians, well, we'll see. We get a different picture from our media than we might if we had a truly free press. Of course, I know, you'll say it's about protecting the troops and all at this point. The truth is, we see what they want at this point, and possibly that will always be the case. I know, lessons learned in Vietnam and all, but still, we don't see the whole picture. And again, assuming you were one of the 'few' civillians who's family was killed, how would you react? I'll bet you'd be there with your white flag and your gun as well. If not, I'll bet you'd think of something! I know I would!

As far as imposing freedom goes, well, I think if it comes from 21,000 lbs bombs, and thousands of cruise missles, I don't know if I'd want it impossed on me. Furthermore, this isn't half over. On the contrary, its just started. Wait until we get to Baghdad. Do you really think these people are as eager to be 'liberated' as the media would us believe. Time will tell, as always, but I expect not!

 

[Squiggy]

RD_151, I wouldn't use Baghdad as the true measure. It is, after all, the seat of power. If he has any truly loyal followers, I'm sure they are concentrated there. The Iraqi people would most certainly welcome the liberation whether or not they are receptive to change. For many, it will soon be their first encounter with three meals a day...

 

[RD_151]

Freedom, yes, freedom to become an Islamic state. I'll bet we'll love that. Anyone see a third Iraqi war on the horizon?

 

[Squiggy]

That is a good point that I think would best be left for the near future. I don't think we plan on imposing catholisism on them. But I do hope they are free enough to govern themselves without too much interference.

 

[Gonz]

Once they have freedom to choose & they really have a choice, I can live with an unfriendly government over there. As long as they don't kill their neighbors or supply the bad guys with means to kill us.

 

[Squiggy]

Like Saudi Arabia......

 

[Gonz]

Yes, Squiggy, like the Saudis

 

[RD_151]

I can live with an unfriendly government over there. As long as they don't kill their neighbors or supply the bad guys with means to kill us.

I'll hold you to that Gonz Remember, we still have Nk and Iran ahead of us. And well, then we'll have the rebuilt Iraq, Iran, and NK a few years down the road.

 

[AlladinSane]

No, I'm not messing with anyone like you assume.

Sorry I meant 'confusing'. I thought it had the same meaning in that context...

 

[RD_151]

Yeah, I forgot about that, good point Squiggy. I don't have to wait for the other wars to start for him to contradict himself