BushWorld

freako104

Well-Known Member
RDX said:
OK, let me elaborate.

Was there a separation of church and state when America was founded? Contrary to popular opinion, no. The term “separation of church and state” was first used by Thomas Jefferson in a letter written to a Baptist Association in Danbury Connecticut in 1802. The Baptists Association had written to Jefferson about a rumor that the federal government was going to sponsor a denomination, making it the official church of the United States. Jefferson wrote back, “I contemplate with solemn reverence the act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” This statement, written to a Baptists organization, assuring them that a single denomination would not be established as the official state religion, is the pretext to the movement of the court system to establish a barrier between the church and the state.

This idea is not found in any other historical documents until it was mentioned in the 1878 court case of Reynolds vs. United States; the plaintiffs used this letter as part of their argument that polygamy laws were unconstitutional. The court however looked at the letter in its ruling and used Jefferson’s statement to argue that the government could make no denominational distinction.

A term separation of Church and State was not used again in a court of law until 1947. In the supreme court case Everton vs. Board of Education the court quoted only eight words from Jefferson “...a wall of separation between church and state.”

It is quite evident to me that we have not had a real separation of Church and State until the middle part of the 20th century. Once may argue that just because the phrase “separation of church and state” was not established in its current form until the mid twentieth century, that the founding fathers had intending this from the very beginning. I find the truth to be rather shocking.

Patrick Henry wrote, “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason people of other faiths have been offered asylums, prosperity and freedom of worship here.”

John Jay, the first chief justice of the US Supreme Court wrote, “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

A House Judiciary Report, written in 1854, said, “Christianity must be considered as the foundation upon which the whole structure rests. Laws will not have permanence or power without the sanction of religious sentiment, without a firm belief that there is a Power above us that will reward our virtues and punish our vices. In this age there will be no substitute for Christianity. That was the religion of the founders of the Republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants. There is a great error on this subject in the opinion that those who organized this Government did not legislate on religion.”

Today we would regard these people as radicals and narrow minded extremists. I don’t know of any mainstream politicians these days that would dare make these statements. The way that government and religion interact has radically changed since then. But to deny that our original founders did not consider religion to be an integral part of our government, is just foolish. We can however debate whether their stance was beneficial for the nation at that time.



*sighs* ok once again I will say what I have said on here before


America was founded as a Christian Nation. Word for word it is not there. but I say there was one. I say that because the govt can not create nor endorse any religion at all. Some of our forefathers I believe have said there should be one as well.
 

A.B.Normal

New Member
RDX said:
While it is true that much of population is controlled by clerics, not all of the clerics have an anti American view. The bulk of the population (including the clerics) still support the US.

Although hes not anti-American ,hes not supporting them either .There have been several instances,elections being but one,where he has caused the US consternation I'd hardly call that supporting them.

Al-Sistani, a moderate who has opposed anti-U.S. violence, holds enormous influence among Iraq's Shiite majority.


On another front, Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani , warned of a strong Shiite response if U.S. forces enter the holy cities of Najaf or Karbala to capture al-Sadr.

The two cities are a "red line," Mahdi al-Karbala'i, al-Sistani's representative in Karbala, said during a sermon. "We are calling for peaceful solutions, but if the coalition forces are to cross the red line, then will take a different stronger position.
 

A.B.Normal

New Member
RDX said:
While it is true that much of population is controlled by clerics, not all of the clerics have an anti American view. The bulk of the population (including the clerics) still support the US.


And from a member of the governing counsel

Tuesday, April 27, 2004

In Washington, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council said Sunday that it does not support offensive raids by U.S. and coalition military forces to capture the renegade cleric.

Ibrahim Al Jafari said the unrest linked with al-Sadr's supporters is "an Iraqi problem" and should be dealt with by Iraqis.

"We do not support mobilizing toward al-Sadr in Najaf, and in Fallujah as well," he said.

source
 
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