Don't like our policies

[Ardsgaine]

Its your 'Name this tune" thread. You paint the theoretical picture then extract the conclusion and paste it into the US left/right political line. Then you fucking bumped the thread and aimed it at me. Now why the fuck would I get pissed about someone painting me with the same brush they just painted Hitler and Bin Laden with....I fucking wonder...

No, Squiggy. I bumped that thread in response to you saying that I had made some reference to the Nazis being leftists while you were gone. I was assuming that you were right, that I had said that at some point in the past week, so I bumped that old thread from way back to show you my argument for it. What I'm asking you to do is find the post that prompted you to say I had labeled the left as Nazis. I've looked for it, and the only thing I could find is where I talked about the old Twilight Zone:The Movie episode with Vic Morrow, and I don't say it there.

Just out of curiosity, you do see that there's a logical difference between saying all leftists are nazis and saying that all nazis are leftists, right?

And how did Bin Laden get into this?

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Oh...this is what you meant my cool out.

 

[chcr]

And I AM sick and tired of this stupid fucking 'pin the tag on the left'

I'm not even on the left and I'm tired of it.

 

[Squiggy]

The first time I read the post it had already been bumped. Thats what pissed me off in the first place. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. It was that post that started me on this. It is that post in which you state that 'they are all leftists and then proceed to aim it at me....

 

[Professur]

So?

Kiss and make up already.

 

[chcr]

If you think the other party in a debate is wrong, offer proof & an argument convincing enough to change minds. If none of that is applicable call them names until they cry.

I'll try that. Thanks.

 

[Ardsgaine]

The first time I read the post it had already been bumped. Thats what pissed me off in the first place. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. It was that post that started me on this. It is that post in which you state that 'they are all leftists and then proceed to aim it at me....

The post you made that started this discussion was posted 4/13/03 03:39am. In it you said:

The problem I have with capitalism and, seemingly, the right wing in general, is that both seem to twist and turn depending on which side of the issue they find themselves. I just read somewhere in the last few days of threads where you actually tried to push "Nazi" to the left side of the spectrum. You can twist the words any way you want, but nazi and dictator and totalitarian are just the epitome of capitalism.

I bumped the thread Name this Tune at 4/13/03 10:20am, i.e., six hours and twenty-one minutes later.

What I am trying to find out is which thread you were referring to in the post I quoted above, because it was not the "Name this Tune" thread. I bumped "Name this Tune" in order to show you my arguments for that position, as a response to your earlier post.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Gee I'd hate to argue against you Ards. What did you get your degree in? Philosophy?

Yes, but I think you already knew that...

 

[Squiggy]

You may have a point in that. But my anger comes from seeing it bumped and aimed at me. I apologize for the confusion in attempting to read so many things so quickly. I still didn't appreciate it. And I'll not sit back and allow anyone to paint me with the same brush they just used to paint Hitler and Bin Laden. I really do get a bit tired of the tags. Just about everyone of you gets pissed at flav for abrasive answers and you only have to deal with one person doing it to you. I get hit with ridiculous flames and bait from about 5 of you. Its bullshit. Plain and simple.

 

[Ardsgaine]

It is just as possible (in theory) to have a democratic communist nation as it is to have a totalitarian capitalist nation.

I'm not sure about a democratic communist nation, but a totalitarian capitalist nation is an impossibility. In order to squelch any resistance to the tyranny, the state must take control of property. Financial independence from the state is what gives people the basis to pursue freedom. That's why dictatorships always seek to control property...

 

[outside looking in]

For my part, I'll avoid labeling you with any "communist" or "nazi" tags, and I'll avoid saying that your beliefs are on the same lines as those philosophies, if you'll avoid labeling me as a "mindless Bush drone" as you so often have over the past several weeks.

K?

Aside from that, I don't see how you equate a statement saying Nazism is inherently leftist with saying you are a Nazi. Just as with the case in Ards' political views, there's pleny of room for you to be right of Stalin and still be left in general. Right? So what's the big deal?

Also, I'd love to continue the discussion of whether communism is "great in theory" in the appropriate thread.

 

[outside looking in]

I'm not sure about a democratic communist nation, but a totalitarian capitalist nation is an impossibility. In order to squelch any resistance to the tyranny, the state must take control of property. Financial independence from the state is what gives people the basis to pursue freedom. That's why dictatorships always seek to control property...

You're probably right of course, it's just a matter of where you draw the line between theory and practice. I fully agree that what you described above is the natural outcome of the philosophy implemented in practice. Is it logically possible though to avoid such an outcome in theory?

I suppose it's very similar to the question of whether communism is good in theory or not. We know it isn't in practice. Is the nature of humans considered to be part of the theory, or part of the practice? It's logically possible that a totalitarian dictator could simply make decisions that benefit the economic prosperity and individual rights of the people. The dictator could, for example, pass laws making it legal to own guns. People are people though, and such a philosophy applied to real people is just flawed. But... flawed in theory or practice? Semantics I suppose. I'm on the same side of the fence as you, I'm just not sure if we agree on whether it is grey or off-white.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

 

[outside looking in]

 

[Squiggy]

oli, I have always respected that you are a good thinker. I don't respect your jumping on me for not responding properly to another right wingers flames and bait. It actually appeared to me, after being away for a few days, that this forum was loaded with bullshit anti-left threads and you were all enjoying a pep rally in my abscence. I can't discuss anything with any right winger when everytime I make a point one of those not yet involved in the discussion throws in a "follow the dick. Monica did" and then proceeds to post page after page of totally unrelated right wing propaganda. Then you jump on me for not being fair? Like I said early on, you've chased out most left wingers with that shit and I certainly don't need it.

We went to war with Iraq. I had to get over it. Bill got a blowjob. Get over it.

 

[Ardsgaine]

I'll not sit back and allow anyone to paint me with the same brush they just used to paint Hitler and Bin Laden.

I didn't even remember that I had mentioned Bin Laden in that thread. I wasn't trying to paint you with a brush, I was trying to explain my view on how the political spectrum should be drawn and where nazis fall on it. If you read the thread, I was trying to refute the claim that fascism is a right wing philosophy. It may have been to the right of the German Communist Party and "right-wing" in the context of the radical politics of Weimar Germany, but it is way to the left of most people in the US-- including you, I'm sure.

Just about everyone of you gets pissed at flav for abrasive answers and you only have to deal with one person doing it to you. I get hit with ridiculous flames and bait from about 5 of you.

I wasn't trying to bait you. Draw you into a debate, yes. Bait you, no.

 

[outside looking in]

Ah, so you're not even talking about this thread then? I was really confused for a while with the Bill and blowjobs thing. Wasn't that a week or so ago? Anyway, I don't think we were having a pep rally at all. In fact, I've started using the ignore feature (for the first time in my life, mind you) to keep things a bit more reasonable in here. I was certainly doing my part in keeping the debates heated, so I've taken myself out of at least some of them. Maybe that will help.

I think it would be useful for us to have a discussion detached from the war about our political beliefs in general... how we define left, right, fanatical, socialist, how economic interaction complicates things, etc. I think we should wait a while and all cool off a bit first... catch a breather before round two starts.

 

[Squiggy]

Read the thread titles in this forum Ards. You'll find several designed to inflame the left and I doubt there are any designed to inflame the right. And you speak of drawing me into a debate? Anything I use in a debate with a right winger is usually attacked by another right winger from a different angle. Five posts in and I'm having five different arguments from five different people all of whom are using my response to someone else to say I'm non responsive or some other shit. Or one of you runs out and starts another anti-left thread and if I ignore it I'm nonresponsive or have no grounds or some other shit. Its totally fucking stupid anymore....

 

[Ardsgaine]

I can't discuss anything with any right winger when everytime I make a point one of those not yet involved in the discussion throws in a "follow the dick. Monica did"

The thing to do would be to ignore those people. They're not making an argument, they're just trying to score points.

 

[Squiggy]

Not a bad idea oli...like I said, I walk a lot closer to the center line than many of you give me credit for.