Foreknowledge of A Natural Disaster

[tank girl]

I posted a simple but...( what I feel to be ) good question in the original thread on the Asian Tsunami, and I still think it is a fairly reasonable one.

...this continues to bug me and being the way that I am, for the sake of pure philisophical pondering I want to pursue the subject a bit further.

For some, I'm predicting that nervous ignorance will probably filter your potential to make much sense of the issue, but that hasn't prevented me from exploring certain issues before, now, has it? Its a pity that the potential for life-saving predictions were neglected for whatever the rescuable number of victims may have been for this mindblowing catastrophe.

(And don't worry, I have a far more intense conspiracy theory brewing up my sleeve inside my head but I'm hardly going to debate the matter here, (who knows what Big Brother might be doing...) its scary even for me to think of as a possibility...)

Washington was aware that a deadly Tidal Wave was building up in the Indian Ocean

Michel Chossudovsky | December 29 2004

The US Military and the State Department were given advanced warning. America's Navy base on the island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean was notified.

Why were fishermen in India, Sri Lanka and Thailand not provided with the same warnings as the US Navy and the US State Department?

Why did the US State Department remain mum on the existence of an impending catastrophe?

With a modern communications system, why did the information not get out? By email, telephone, fax, satellite TV... ?

It could have saved the lives of more than 80,000 people. And the death toll is rising.

The earthquake was a Magnitude 9.0 on the Richter scale, among the highest in recorded history. US authorities had initially recorded 8.0 on the Richter scale.

As confirmed by several reports, US scientists in Hawaii, had advanced knowledge regarding an impending catastrophe, but failed to contact their Asian counterparts.

Charles McCreery of the Pacific Warning Center in Hawaii confirmed that his team tried desperately to get in touch with his counterparts in Asia. According to McCreery, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's center in Honolulu, the team did its utmost to contact the countries. (The NOAA in Hawaii's Report at http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2004/s2357.htm ).

His team contacted the US State Department, which apparently contacted the Asian governments. The Indian government confirms that no such warning was received. (The Hindu, 27 Dec 2004)

Nine (9.0) on the Richter scale: The Director of the Hawaii Warning Center stated that "they did not know" that the earthquake would generate a deadly tidal wave until it had hit Sri Lanka, more than one and a half hours later, at 2.30 GMT. (see Timeline below)

"Not until the deadly wave hit Sri Lanka and the scientists in Honolulu saw news reports of the damage there did they recognize what was happening... 'Then we knew there was something moving across the Indian Ocean,' said Charles McCreery. (quoted in the NYT, 28 Dec 2004 ).

This statement is at odds with the Timeline of the tidal wave disaster. Thailand was hit almost an hour before Sri Lanka and the news reports were already out. Surely, these reports out of Thailand were known to the scientists in Hawaii, not to mention the office of Sec. Colin Powell, well before the tidal wave reached Sri Lanka.

''We wanted to try to do something, but without a plan in place then, it was not an effective way to issue a warning, or to have it acted upon,'' Dr. McCreery said. ''There would have still been some time -- not a lot of time, but some time -- if there was something that could be done in Madagascar, or on the coast of Africa.''

The above statement is also inconsistent.

The tidal wave reached the East African coastline several hours after it reached The Maldives islands. According to news reports, Male, the capital of the Maldives was hit three hours after the earthquake, at approximately 4.00 GMT. By that time everybody around the World knew.

It is worth noting that the US Navy was fully aware of the deadly tidal wave, because the Navy was on the Pacific Warning Center's list of contacts. Moreover, America's strategic Naval base on the island of Diego Garcia had also been notified. Although directly in the path of the tidal wave (see animated chart below), the Diego Garcia military base reported "no damage".

"One of the few places in the Indian Ocean that got the message of the quake was Diego Garcia, a speck of an island with a United States Navy base, because the Pacific warning center's contact list includes the Navy. Finding the appropriate people in Sri Lanka or India was harder." (NYT, 28 Dec 2004, emphasis added)

Now how hard is it to pick up the phone and call Sri Lanka?

According to Charles McCreery, director of the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center.

"We don't have contacts in our address book for anybody in that part of the world."

Only after the first waves hit Sri Lanka did workers at National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre [PTWC] and others in Hawaii start making phone calls to US diplomats in Madagascar and Mauritius in an attempt to head off further disaster.

"We didn't have a contact in place where you could just pick up the phone," Dolores Clark, spokeswoman for the International Tsunami Information Centre in Hawaii said. "We were starting from scratch."

These statement on the surface are inconsistent, since several Indian Ocean Asian countries are in fact members of the Tsunami Warning System.

There are 26 member countries of the International Coordination Group for the Tsunami Warning System , including Thailand, Singapore and Indonesia. All these countries would normally be in the address book of the PTWC, which works in close coordination with its sister organization the ICGTWS , which has its offices in Honolulu at the headquarters of the National Weather Service Pacific Region Headquarters in downtown Honolulu.

The mandate of the ICGTWS is to "assist member states in establishing national warning systems, and makes information available on current technologies for tsunami warning systems."

Australia and Indonesia were notified. The US Congress is to investigate why the US government did not notify all the Indian Ocean nations in the affected area: "Only two countries in the affected region, Indonesia and Australia, received the warning"

"Although Thailand belongs to the international tsunami-warning network, its west coast does not have the system's wave sensors mounted on ocean buoys.

The northern tip of the earthquake fault is located near the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and tsunamis appear to have rushed eastward toward the Thai resort of Phuket.

"They had no tidal gauges and they had no warning," said Waverly Person, a geophysicist at the National Earthquake Information Centre in Golden, Colorado, U.S., which monitors seismic activity worldwide. "There are no buoys in the Indian Ocean and that's where this tsunami occurred."" (Hindu, 27 Dec 2004)

The issue of the Ocean sensors is a Red Herring

We we were not able to warn them because we had no sensors in the Indian Ocean: This argument is a Red Herring.

We are not dealing with advanced information based on the Ocean sensors, but on an emergency warning transmitted in the immediate wake of the earthquake. The latter took place at 00.58 GMT on the 26th of Dec. That information was sent to The State Department and the US Navy.

With modern communications, the information of an impending disaster could have been sent around the World in a matter of minutes, by email, by telephone, by fax, not to mention by live satellite Television.

Coastguards, municipalities, local governments, tourist hotels, etc. could have been warned.

According to Tsunami Society President Prof. Tad Murty of the University of Manitoba:

'there's no reason for a single individual to get killed in a tsunami,' since most areas had anywhere from 25 minutes to four hours before a wave hit. So, once again, because of indifference and corruption thousands of innocent people have died needlessly." (Calgary Sun, 28 Dec 2004)

Key Questions

1. Why were the Indian Ocean countries' governments not informed?

Were there "guidelines" from the US military or the State Department regarding the release of an advanced warning?

According to the statement of the Hawaii based PTWC, advanced warning was released but on a selective basis. Indonesia was already hit, so the warning was in any event redundant and Australia was several thousand miles from the epicentre of the earthquake and was, therefore, under no immediate threat.

2. Did US authorities monitoring seismographic data have knowledge of the earthquake prior to its actual occurrence at 00.57 GMT on the 26th of December?

The question is whether there were indications of abnormal seismic activity prior to 01.00 GMT on the 26th of Dec.

The US Geological Survey confirmed that the earthquake which triggered the tidal wave measured 9.0 on the Richter scale and was the fourth largest quake since 1900. In such cases, one would expect evidence of abnormal seismic activity before the actual occurrence of a major earthquake.

3. Why is the US military Calling the Shots on Humanitarian Relief

Why in the wake of the disaster, is the US military (rather than civilian humanitarian/aid organizations operating under UN auspices) taking a lead role?

The US Pacific Command has been designated to coordinate the channeling of emergency relief? Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Rusty Blackman, commander of the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force based in Okinawa, has been designated to lead the emergency relief program

Lieutenant General Blackman was previously Chief of Staff for Coalition Forces Land Component Command, responsible for leading the Marines into Baghdad during "Operation Iraqi Freedom."

Three "Marine disaster relief assessment teams" under Blackman's command have been sent to Thailand, Sri Lanka and Indonesia.

US military aircraft are conducting observation missions.

In a bitter irony, part of this operation is being coordinated out of America's Naval base in Diego Garcia, which was not struck by the tidal wave. Meanwhile, "USS Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group, which was in Hong Kong when the earthquake and tsunamis struck, has been diverted to the Gulf of Thailand to support recovery operations" (Press Conference of Pacific Command, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2004/n12292004_2004122905.html ).

Two Aircraft Carriers have been sent to the region.

Why is it necessary for the US to mobilize so much military equipment? The pattern is unprecedented:

Conway said the Lincoln carrier strike group has 12 helicopters embarked that he said could be "extremely valuable" in recovery missions.

An additional 25 helicopters are aboard USS Bonhomme Richard, headed to the Bay of Bengal. Conway said the expeditionary strike group was in Guam and is forgoing port visits in Guam and Singapore and expects to arrive in the Bay of Bengal by Jan. 7.

Conway said the strike group, with its seven ships, 2,100 Marines and 1,400 sailors aboard, also has four Cobra helicopters that will be instrumented in reconnaissance efforts.

Because fresh water is one of the greatest needs in the region, Fargo has ordered seven ships — each capable of producing 90,000 gallons of fresh water a day — to the region. Conway said five of these ships are pre-positioned in Guam and two will come from Diego Garcia.

A field hospital ship pre-positioned in Guam would also be ordered to the region, depending on findings of the disaster relief assessment teams and need, Conway said. (Ibid)

Why has a senior commander involved in the invasion of Iraq been assigned to lead the US emergency relief program?


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The Tsunami Timeline

Sunday 26 December 2004 (GMT)

00.57 GMT: Between 00.57 GMT and 00.59 GMT, an 8.9 magnitude earthquake occurs on the seafloor near Aceh in northern Indonesia. (See http://ioc.unesco.org/itsu/ and other reports)

00.58 GMT: Saturday 25 December, 2.58 pm Hawaii Time (GMT-10) 26 Dec 00.58 GMT. US government's Pacific Tsunami Warning Center registers the earthquake on its seismic instruments. In other words at the time of its occurrence at 00.58 GMT.

shortly after 01.00 GMT: Earthquake hits several cities in Indonesia, creates panic in urban areas in peninsular Malaysia. The news of the earthquakes is reported immediately.

01.3O GMT: Phuket and Coast of Thailand: The tidal wave hits to coastline shortly after 8.30 am, 01.30 GMT

02.30 GMT: Colombo Sri Lanka and Eastern Coast of Sri Lanka, the tidal wave hits the coastal regions close to the capital Colombo, according to report at 8.30 am local time, 02.30 GMT (an hour and a half after the earthqake)

02.45 GMT: India's Eastern Coastline. The tsunami hits India's eastern coast from 6:15 a.m.(2:45 GMT)

04.00 GMT: Male, Maldives: From about 9:00 am (0400 GMT), three hours after the earthquake, the capital, Male, and other parts of the country were flooded by the tsunami. (more than three hours after the earthquake)

11.00 GMT (approximate time according to news dispatches): East Coast of Africa is hit. More than ten hours after the earthquake

The animation below indicates approximate times at which the tidal wave hits the coastal areas of Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, India, Bangladesh, The Maldives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

26 Dec 2004

Seismic Activity on Dec 26

(click http://www.pgc.nrcan.gc.ca/seisplots/long-period/200412/20041226.PGC.LHZ.24hr.gif

Note: extreme seismic activity prior to 01.00 GMT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Richter Scale

US scientists in Hawaii had initially indicated that the earthquake was of a magnitude of 8.0 (ten times weaker than in the case a 9.0 earthquake on the Richter scale).

How can an error of this nature be made, with very sophisticated measuring equipment?

According to Natural Resources Canada:
"The magnitude of an earthquake is a measure of the amount of energy released. Each earthquake has a unique magnitude assigned to it. This is based on the amplitude of seismic waves measured at a number of seismograph sites, after being corrected for distance from the earthquake. Magnitude estimates often change by up to 0.2 units, as additional data are included in the estimate.

The Richter scale is logarithmic, that is an increase of 1 magnitude unit represents a factor of ten times in amplitude. The seismic waves of a magnitude 6 earthquake are 10 times greater in amplitude than those of a magnitude 5 earthquake. However, in terms of energy release, a magnitude 6 earthquake is about 31 times greater than a magnitude 5. The intensity of an earthquake varies greatly according to distance from the earthquake, ground conditions, and other factors. The Modified Mercalli Intensity Scale is used to describe earthquake effects." ( http://www.pgc.nrcan.gc.ca/seismo/eqinfo/richter.htm )

The following criteria are given by Natural Resources, Canada:
M=8: "Great" earthquake, great destruction, loss of life over several 100 km (1906 San Francisco, 1949 Queen Charlotte Islands) .

M=9: Rare great earthquake, major damage over a large region over 1000 km (Chile 1960, Alaska 1964, and west coast of British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, 1700) .

Source Natural Resources Canada: http://www.pgc.nrcan.gc.ca/seismo/eqinfo/richter.htm

forget about it if need be
thinking about this and my whole conspiracy
really really disturbs me

consider this...food for thought. (that is; if you are able to chew before you swallow )

 

[ResearchMonkey]

We already discussed the points... that there had been several attempts by several nations or qualified entity to contact the affected nation. No one answered the phones.

Warning were broadcast in one or more places and was generally ignored.

Some nations chose not to boroadcast it because it wold scare the tourist.

Check this out pumpkin; slice it, dice it, powder it, and stir-fry it .....it aint our fault, no matter what quacky BS you dig-up.

I mean, if you really are lloking to create some tin-foil-hat conspiracy.... I'll give you a hint. H.A.A.R.P (but you have to do the werk to find it.)


*X-files music* ...the answer is out there

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Black Heliochoppers protecting America, today tomorrow, forever.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Why Thais avoided tsunami warning
'Meteorologists decided against it 'out of courtesy to tourist industry'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 30, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern



Thailand's foremost meteorologists, meeting in a crisis session before the tsunami hit, decided not to issue a warning "out of courtesy to the tourism industry," according to a report in the Thai paper The Nation.

Minutes after the earthquake in the Indian Ocean Sunday morning, Thailand's top meteorological experts met to consider the danger posed to the coast. But the economic impact on the nation's tourism industry dissuaded them from warning those most in danger.

According to the report, the experts considered the fact that there had not been any dangerous floods in 300 years. There was a consensus that the Indonesian island of Sumatra would be a "cushion" for the southern coast of Thailand.

The experts also reportedly believed the quake was an 8.1 on the Richter scale, rather than a 9.0. A similar sized quake hit the same area in 2002 with no flooding at all, according to the report.

Among the meteorological experts, only four had expertise in earthquakes, according to The Nation.

"We finally decided not to do anything because the tourist season was in full swing," a source told the paper. "The hotels were 100 percent booked. What if we issued a warning, which would have led to an evacuation, and nothing had happened. What would be the outcome? The tourist industry would be immediately hurt. Our department would not be able to endure a lawsuit."

WND

...in the werds of Donald 'what is with your hair' Trump "your fired".

 

[unclehobart]

I have seen some of these arguments brought up and talked about in a few places.

First, The lions share of the deaths were right there on Sumatra... 2 minutes from the epicenter. No amount of warning would have saved them from such a point blank shot. The earthquake was still active when the wave would have slammed into that coast. Even instant warning would not have allowed sufficient time for people to move out of harms way. That was what? 80,000 of the tally? The premise that 80,000 of the current tally of 120,000 could have been saved is a wild exaggeration.

Second, The tsunami sensor net is only in the Pacific; 7 pressure sensor placements by the US and something like 14 for the Japanese. It was only in the Pacific because thats where tsunamis happend all the time. Tsunamis in the Indian Ocean are described as 'once a century' events. That made the political will to implement, pay for, and maintain such a program impossible for the Indian Ocean nations.

Third, Its not the military that controls such information. Its all handled by the civilian NOAA national oceanagraphic and atmospheric administration. They immediately relayed calls to those they could reach. The communications net to that part of the world was nonexistant. One would have to call the State Department and then the State Department would have to call their ambassadors office or some other functionary office that was being staffed on the early morning off hours. The calls did go out ... some got through... some beaches were empty... many were prepared. Vast areas were unreachable either because of a lack of chain of command, decision making foot dragging by officials and police, or noone was at the end of the line to take the call. Getting something in motion from a dead standstill is a time consuming uphill struggle when the automated systems are not in place.

Fourth, Your entire premise singles out the US as a whipping boy again. Nowhere did I see a rant against all of the other 30 major industrial powers of the world. They ALL have seismographic equipment and instantaneous access to the raw data coming out of NOAA and elsewhere. Even Sweden can measure a 9.0 earthquake around the world from the opposite side of the globe. Beyond that, there are 100+ major universities around the world with dedicated programs to the sciences of vulcanology and seismology with fully independent equipment to monitor and verify such earthquakes. Japan has more and better equipment and is the general region of the catastrophe and posesses the same technology to warn the world. Why no choice words for them? Why would these 100s of government and civilian bodies crossing 60+ countries with the same information as the US and its military be exempt from attempting to contact and warn the victims of their peril? Your conspiracy would have to be mighty large indeed to emcompass the 10,000+ people with the realtime information in their hands and not acting upon it. The conspiracy would have to be extra, extra large to assume that Indonesia, having been hit 2 minutes into the earthquake and giving 30 minutes for shock, realization, and emergency reactions to set in, would suddenly sit on their hands and not relay the general warnings to their neighbors still fully an hour away from disaster that a tsunami was coming?

I believe that the warnings did go out... but that the areas that needed the warning most were so stuck in the last century that there was simply noone that could be called, no central leadership with the speed and will to react, no way to relay the message and force people out of their homes at dawn to chase them half a kilometer inland.

 

[Inkara1]

Key Questions

1. Why were the Indian Ocean countries' governments not informed?

Were there "guidelines" from the US military or the State Department regarding the release of an advanced warning?

According to the statement of the Hawaii based PTWC, advanced warning was released but on a selective basis. Indonesia was already hit, so the warning was in any event redundant and Australia was several thousand miles from the epicentre of the earthquake and was, therefore, under no immediate threat.

Allow me to counter that question with another: are US-owned phones the only ones with keypads for dialing out? Perhaps the US didn't call everyone on the phone list, but it seems like someone in Jakarta could also call Sri Lanka and say, "hey, we just got hit with a big fucking tsunami over here. You might want to hold on to your asses over there."

2. Did US authorities monitoring seismographic data have knowledge of the earthquake prior to its actual occurrence at 00.57 GMT on the 26th of December?

The question is whether there were indications of abnormal seismic activity prior to 01.00 GMT on the 26th of Dec.

The US Geological Survey confirmed that the earthquake which triggered the tidal wave measured 9.0 on the Richter scale and was the fourth largest quake since 1900. In such cases, one would expect evidence of abnormal seismic activity before the actual occurrence of a major earthquake.

If this were a new volcano, I'd agree with this point. But it's not, so it's obvious someone needs to actually study how earthquakes work a little bit before spouting off. Earthquakes happen without warning. A series of small seismic events, in fact, would have most likely relieved some of the pressure on that part of the fault. To build up enough energy to trigger an earthquake of that size would require a period of relative non-activity significantly longer than the amount of time the technology has been available to pinpoint small temblors on a fault miles under the ocean. There is speculation, however, that the 8.0 earthquake southeast of Australia, at the other end of this same fault line, may have contributed to the slippage of the plates for the 9.0. This actually makes sense, since the earthquake at one end would have increased the tension on the other end, which increased the level of potential energy enough to overcome the Earth's resistance and turn into kinetic energy.

3. Why is the US military Calling the Shots on Humanitarian Relief

Why in the wake of the disaster, is the US military (rather than civilian humanitarian/aid organizations operating under UN auspices) taking a lead role?

If the US military stepped aside and let the UN run it, then everyone would be up in arms asking why the US isn't sending forces to help, and you damn well know it.

The US Pacific Command has been designated to coordinate the channeling of emergency relief? Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Rusty Blackman, commander of the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force based in Okinawa, has been designated to lead the emergency relief program

Lieutenant General Blackman was previously Chief of Staff for Coalition Forces Land Component Command, responsible for leading the Marines into Baghdad during "Operation Iraqi Freedom."

Three "Marine disaster relief assessment teams" under Blackman's command have been sent to Thailand, Sri Lanka and Indonesia.

US military aircraft are conducting observation missions.

In a bitter irony, part of this operation is being coordinated out of America's Naval base in Diego Garcia, which was not struck by the tidal wave. Meanwhile, "USS Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group, which was in Hong Kong when the earthquake and tsunamis struck, has been diverted to the Gulf of Thailand to support recovery operations" (Press Conference of Pacific Command, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec...2004122905.html ).

Two Aircraft Carriers have been sent to the region.

Why is it necessary for the US to mobilize so much military equipment? The pattern is unprecedented:

Conway said the Lincoln carrier strike group has 12 helicopters embarked that he said could be "extremely valuable" in recovery missions.

An additional 25 helicopters are aboard USS Bonhomme Richard, headed to the Bay of Bengal. Conway said the expeditionary strike group was in Guam and is forgoing port visits in Guam and Singapore and expects to arrive in the Bay of Bengal by Jan. 7.

Conway said the strike group, with its seven ships, 2,100 Marines and 1,400 sailors aboard, also has four Cobra helicopters that will be instrumented in reconnaissance efforts.

Because fresh water is one of the greatest needs in the region, Fargo has ordered seven ships — each capable of producing 90,000 gallons of fresh water a day — to the region. Conway said five of these ships are pre-positioned in Guam and two will come from Diego Garcia.

A field hospital ship pre-positioned in Guam would also be ordered to the region, depending on findings of the disaster relief assessment teams and need, Conway said. (Ibid)

I'll tell you why so much military equipment is headed there: because our ships have the technology to provide what is needed in the area right now. Millions of displaced people are going to need millions of gallons of dysintery-free water each day. And perhaps this pattern is unprecedented, but is there much precedent for this disaster?

Why has a senior commander involved in the invasion of Iraq been assigned to lead the US emergency relief program?

Who gives a shit? Is involvement in Operation Iraqi Freedom automatic disqualification for involvement in operation help the Indian Ocean nations out?

 

[tank girl]

uh duh...obviously those points you made are that weak they don't really satisfy the weight of this question, my dear: thats precisely why I'm continuing the topic on another thread. :tard:

theres no point in regurgitating spin, taking it seriously and then considering that as the "end of story", imo thats just really dumb. If you actually wanted me to take those statements seriously they would have to have had some serious input into them, with justifiable sources and not half-pie news stories from the coorporate media - they are snippet pieces and don't really tell me anything at all.

You're also completely interpereting my stance, again..My angle I'm trying to take here is not one of BLAME and what ACTUALLY OCCURRED but a QUESTION of WHY? therefore a look into the 'preventative' steps that could have been taken but werent. and why. I find it a very interesting point that the U.S research stations or whatever knew before anyone else did what was happening.

Your attack is also not really constructive, I'm trying to generate a bit of intelligent discussion not hit my head against a brick wal, if you have a "slam down" argument to make please, do me a facour and add a bit of SUBSTANCE to it...its pretty difficult to even bother considering it otherwise.

The matter of the indonesians not picking up a phone was just the ANGLE for ONE NEWS STORY, and you use it as the basis for your justification that I must be wrong in questioning what went on just prior to the disaster took place... don't you understand? The media are constantly grasping for new ways to take the same story, just because you find an explaination doesn't really mean it applies to the whole matter to heart. This issue is much, much bigger than that.


I'm already onto the Haarp deal, you could probably guess where I'd go with that.

 

[samcurry]

In defense of question 3. we could just send money like a bunch of other nations. or better yet, we could be just doing nothing.
We send military because this is what they are trained to do and closest to the situation in at the time.
And again this is a typical bashing thread of the U.S. from you.
Claiming that the US had some hand in this happening and then sending our military might in. Im glad i dont have your outlook of the world.

 

[Shadowfax]

i'm glad that the U.S. is giving a helping hand to all those people who need their help. same goes for ALL countries who are trying to help out.
those people went/go/will continue to go through hell, and they will need from outside to get things back on track again.

it's good to see that in India and Sri Lanka, for instance, people from different countries and different religions are helping eachother side by side.
hopefully some people in our so-called "civilized world" will get their heads our of their asses and stop whining about everything and give some aid, where needed.

there was no warning, while their could have been. perhaps. what good does it do at this point to start discussing that? none. it won't help those involved in the disaster at all.
the US donated money. apparently not enough according to the NY Times. they raised the amount. even better, but still people continue to bitch about it being too little. it's a sad, sad world, that it has come to this.

i'm positive that some people should focus a bit more at all the problems at hand, in stead of creating even more by their ignorant bashing on others.

 

[unclehobart]

uh duh...obviously those points you made are that weak they don't really satisfy the weight of this question, my dear: thats precisely why I'm continuing the topic on another thread. :tard:

theres no point in regurgitating spin, taking it seriously and then considering that as the "end of story", imo thats just really dumb. If you actually wanted me to take those statements seriously they would have to have had some serious input into them, with justifiable sources and not half-pie news stories from the coorporate media - they are snippet pieces and don't really tell me anything at all.

You're also completely interpereting my stance, again..My angle I'm trying to take here is not one of BLAME and what ACTUALLY OCCURRED but a QUESTION of WHY? therefore a look into the 'preventative' steps that could have been taken but werent. and why. I find it a very interesting point that the U.S research stations or whatever knew before anyone else did what was happening.

Your attack is also not really constructive, I'm trying to generate a bit of intelligent discussion not hit my head against a brick wal, if you have a "slam down" argument to make please, do me a facour and add a bit of SUBSTANCE to it...its pretty difficult to even bother considering it otherwise.

The matter of the indonesians not picking up a phone was just the ANGLE for ONE NEWS STORY, and you use it as the basis for your justification that I must be wrong in questioning what went on just prior to the disaster took place... don't you understand? The media are constantly grasping for new ways to take the same story, just because you find an explaination doesn't really mean it applies to the whole matter to heart. This issue is much, much bigger than that.


I'm already onto the Haarp deal, you could probably guess where I'd go with that.

Whom are you addressing? Three people have responded. I can't tell if I am the one you are calling weak and spun and regurgitated.

 

[Inkara1]

I'm doubting it was me because I posted three minutes before she did and she made no mention of my correcting her author's assertions on earthquakes.

 

[samcurry]

My guess why no specific address is that a practicing philosopher couldnt argue the facts.
Anyone with half a brain would not try and pass blame on a person when it comes to natural events. How could they? Yes we have technology, but UNTIL the whole world is on the same technology level things like this is gonna happen.

Also from a different angle, I know most here are athiest. BUT in revelation it talks about these very things, wars and rumors of wars. Earthquakes, oceans swallowing up lands, pestulance and such. IF this were the endtimes as revelations suggest do you think anyone really could have prevented it?

 

[Gonz]

I'm predicting that nervous ignorance will probably filter your potential to make much sense of the issue,

I'm too stupid to understand the questions. So I'll ramble on about it's not our job & ponder the question of why NZ didn't warn them. No instruments were needed. A 9.0 in the middle of the ocean guarantees a tsunami.

 

[Gonz]

My angle I'm trying to take here is not one of BLAME and what ACTUALLY OCCURRED but a QUESTION of WHY?

Fair enough. Go back, edit your question to include at least 5 industrialized nations (not including the US but one must be your own). Then we'll see if this can stop being political.

 

[Leslie]

forget about it if need be

I think that's everyone's best bet here, it's a load of tripe.

 

[tank girl]

My guess why no specific address is that a practicing philosopher couldnt argue the facts.
Anyone with half a brain would not try and pass blame on a person when it comes to natural events. How could they? Yes we have technology, but UNTIL the whole world is on the same technology level things like this is gonna happen.

Also from a different angle, I know most here are athiest. BUT in revelation it talks about these very things, wars and rumors of wars. Earthquakes, oceans swallowing up lands, pestulance and such. IF this were the endtimes as revelations suggest do you think anyone really could have prevented it?

no I donb't think for a minute that such a thing could ever be prevented. And I'm not looking for anybody to blame


don't you think its a bit to bloody late for that?

I'm merely raising attention to a situation that seems to me to be a very important question that needs to be addressed - but of course you and Gonz and others have to come to the most basic assumptions to conclusions that prevent you from actually thinking and considering the fact that as a philisophical question it is far more rhetorical than literal; but it does have a point.

I am NOT asking if this could/should have been prevented... it has happened, obviously....

but as a pure matter of consideration - I think that it is very, very important not to pass up such a thought

so predictable of you to come to that though... such a weak angle of rebuttal where clearly the question is much larger than facts though the facts are there the point is to avert the predictable, the common sense line of logic and think for yourself for a change. And i would think that we'd be in very serious trouble if we gave that ability up for the sake of what we believe to be common sense...

If I were more concerned withfacts I might be scientist...but then, facts are only what you consider to be right...

 

[tank girl]

Whom are you addressing? Three people have responded. I can't tell if I am the one you are calling weak and spun and regurgitated.

nope, that would be directed to mister chimpanzee

you actually come up with very good points, hobey

 

[samcurry]

Why would you think i'm predictable? Ive only ever responded to your threads once maybe twice now.
And If your not looking for someone to blame why would you be sure and BOLD the points directed at the US?
So sister philospher how do you suggest we prevent this from happening again? Since you seem to think yourself so much more intelectual than us yanks?
I Find it amazing what freshman uni students think. they are so much smarter than the rest of us, gonna change the world and all.
The fact is no one could have prevented this even if they knew it a few hours before it happened. Imagine the traffic jams and streets filled with people trying to escape this. they wouldnt have made it either way. Maybe you could change your studies to the IT field and make it a goal to convert all 3rd world countries to updated technology so everyone could be warned at the same time without having to go thru ambasssdors.
Tell the tourism people that the mighty dollar doesnt mean as much as a human life.
For asking us all to look at the bigger picture, i believe you havent looked at it yourself. there are a lot more problems than just telling someone theres a 30 foot wall of water heading your way.

 

[samcurry]

You're also completely interpereting my stance, again..My angle I'm trying to take here is not one of BLAME and what ACTUALLY OCCURRED but a QUESTION of WHY? therefore a look into the 'preventative' steps that could have been taken but werent. and why. I find it a very interesting point that the U.S research stations or whatever knew before anyone else did what was happening.

this is your questions(which wasn't stated untill you were pressed to post it.)

why did a natural disaster happen? if you ever get an answer to that you will become a very rich person, considering you will be able to predict the future and all events that occur.

What prevenetive steps can be taken? well considering we never had a NATURAL disaster of this magnitude untill now that is something ALL countries will have to figure out.

And this last opinion: "I find it a very interesting point that the U.S research stations or whatever knew before anyone else did what was happening".
How do you know we knew it before anyone else? Were you there? nobody knows for sure who knew it first, but as i said in my post before by the time ANYONE knew the magnitude it was already to late.

 

[unclehobart]

nope, that would be directed to mister chimpanzee

you actually come up with very good points, hobey

I could come up with better if I knew what direction your philiosophical extraction was headed. Could you elaborate on this conspiracy? I can play devils advocate without chest thumping if I can just get a better feel for what you're getting at.