Good idea, or angry backlash?

[Gato_Solo]

Its an interesting theory, so I say why not?

 

[MrBishop]

Many places make you pay for rescue efforts, particularly if you place yourself at risk (and in some cases, place the rescuers at risk).

Hell, you get to pay for ambulances to take you to hospitals.

**
Just so long as they don't start charging you for Policemen to come in case of a crime, or a Firefighter in case your house/business catches fire, eh.

**Interesting double-standard, eh

 

[Gato_Solo]

Many places make you pay for rescue efforts, particularly if you place yourself at risk (and in some cases, place the rescuers at risk).

Hell, you get to pay for ambulances to take you to hospitals.

**
Just so long as they don't start charging you for Policemen to come in case of a crime, or a Firefighter in case your house/business catches fire, eh.

**Interesting double-standard, eh

Not entirely. A police/fire response is for a crime or an unforseen incident. Nobody intentionally puts themselves at risk for a crime or a fire (arson notwithstanding). A rescue of a swimmer in an undertow is an accident. A rescue of a climber, who intentionally went into a risky area is not an unforseen incident. Its a possibility.

 

[Luis G]

If they put themselves at risk, they should pay for it or get an insurance before.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

OK, let's try this one on for size.

I enjoy hiking. I go every chance I get.

Before I leave my home, I take every precaution I can think of. I have standard supplies such as water and snack foods. I have a small first aid kit capable of addressing most minor injuries. I carry a knife capable of cutting down small saplings if needed for wood or even making splints, and it is sharp enough to gut small animals. I have a piece of rope and another longer piece of twine, again mainly for splints, but also handy for a dozen other uses. At least three people know when I am leaving, who is with me, where we are going, when we expect to reach the end of our hike, and how to get to both starting and ending points. When possible, I read the trail description numerous times to anticipate anything unusual such as rock croppings, narrow ledges, whatever.

Now. After all that, what if something does happen? Bears. A fall. Getting swept into a fast running stream (I cannot swim). Am I then liable?

I submit that some drunk who wanders off into the woods and gets lost should be more culpable than a prepared hiker/mountain climber/whatever. Living where I do, I hear of lost hikers every summer. It's laughable really, because unless you are either a total idiot or a complete novice getting lost on a hiking trail is damn near impossible. Yet it happens. People panic I guess, after awhile dehydration sets in...who knows?

I'm probably oversensitive on the issue. I just detest seeing hikers get a bad rap as a whole because of a few morons who probably don't have any business being out there alone in the first place. So to answer the question...let the idiots pay for being rescued, let the prepared be helped when needed.

 

[chcr]

This is actually an old question in AZ from when I used to live there. If you put yourself in a position where you need rescuing, you should absolutely be responsible for the cost of the rescue, IMO. Hell, when I was racing bikes everyone understood that if you got hurt in a crash you were responsible for the bill, how is this any different? Insurance should be part of your equipment if you're taking a risk.

SnP, I don't think most people give hikers a bad rap because of the morons. All of the intelligent people realize they're morons.

 

[Gato_Solo]

OK, let's try this one on for size.

I enjoy hiking. I go every chance I get.

Before I leave my home, I take every precaution I can think of. I have standard supplies such as water and snack foods. I have a small first aid kit capable of addressing most minor injuries. I carry a knife capable of cutting down small saplings if needed for wood or even making splints, and it is sharp enough to gut small animals. I have a piece of rope and another longer piece of twine, again mainly for splints, but also handy for a dozen other uses. At least three people know when I am leaving, who is with me, where we are going, when we expect to reach the end of our hike, and how to get to both starting and ending points. When possible, I read the trail description numerous times to anticipate anything unusual such as rock croppings, narrow ledges, whatever.

Now. After all that, what if something does happen? Bears. A fall. Getting swept into a fast running stream (I cannot swim). Am I then liable?

Not quite the same as ice climbing in bad weather, but, yes, you should assume any risk when engaging in risky activities. This is niether a slam on you, nor on your hiking skills, but why should the local community shell out $6,000 per hour to rescue you if you get into a bad spot? What makes you, personally, worth $6,000 per hour to society in general?

BTW....

1. Bears generally do not attack humans unless the human is interfering with the bear, or the cubs. There are exceptions, but those are rare.
2. An experienced hiker doe not generally fall. Something about checking your footing before you proceed, or watching where you're going come to mind.
3. If you know you must ford a stream, and most hikers plan their routes, rather than wandering aimlessly through the woods, shouldn't swimming be a part of your survival skill-set?

I submit that some drunk who wanders off into the woods and gets lost should be more culpable than a prepared hiker/mountain climber/whatever. Living where I do, I hear of lost hikers every summer. It's laughable really, because unless you are either a total idiot or a complete novice getting lost on a hiking trail is damn near impossible. Yet it happens. People panic I guess, after awhile dehydration sets in...who knows?

I'm probably oversensitive on the issue. I just detest seeing hikers get a bad rap as a whole because of a few morons who probably don't have any business being out there alone in the first place. So to answer the question...let the idiots pay for being rescued, let the prepared be helped when needed.

I do believe you are being a bit oversensitive, but...knowing the risks involved, would you climb Mt Hood in the middle of winter as those folks did?

As a side note...PETA is upset with those folks because they risked the life of the dog.

 

[MrBishop]

What about ice climbing in good weather...but the weather changes on you?

Shit happens...all the time.

I canoe-camp when i can. The last time, MrsBish and I did 5 days in Algonquin park. Canoe/portage from one camp-site to another taking everything on our backs. It was beautiful and i enjoyed it immensely, but the water-table was low that season, and we ended up having to climb over a beaver dam, and on several occasions, had to leave the river and portage around blockages and low-water through 'unprepared' trails using map/compass alone to get to the next passable river.

I could easily have punctured my leg on a sharp branch whilst going over that damn dam, or twisted an ankle while portaging (limited vision, eh)...and that would've meant MrsBish going back alone to get help. *The reverse was also true*

MrsBish did twist her ankle lightly on our last day in...we kept on with me doing double-load. We have, in the past, been caught up in storms that weren't supposed to come..including one which turned us back because of high waves on the lake and a good risk of capsizing.

Now - I would've been charged for a rescue...and paid it gladly. It's part of my budget under 'shit happens'. The 'shit happens' money goes towards a nice dinner somewhere after the trip is over to help celebrate the trip AND avoiding the shit.

Life's dangerous.

 

[Gato_Solo]

What about ice climbing in good weather...but the weather changes on you?

Yoohoo. Never said bad weather. I said middle of winter. Mt Hood has ice near the summit all year round.

Shit happens...all the time.

Which is why you should prepare for the worst or stay out of the activity. Most folks do just that. Others just go for the 'thrill'.

I canoe-camp when i can. The last time, MrsBish and I did 5 days in Algonquin park. Canoe/portage from one camp-site to another taking everything on our backs. It was beautiful and i enjoyed it immensely, but the water-table was low that season, and we ended up having to climb over a beaver dam, and on several occasions, had to leave the river and portage around blockages and low-water through 'unprepared' trails using map/compass alone to get to the next passable river.

I could easily have punctured my leg on a sharp branch whilst going over that damn dam, or twisted an ankle while portaging (limited vision, eh)...and that would've meant MrsBish going back alone to get help. *The reverse was also true*

MrsBish did twist her ankle lightly on our last day in...we kept on with me doing double-load. We have, in the past, been caught up in storms that weren't supposed to come..including one which turned us back because of high waves on the lake and a good risk of capsizing.

Now - I would've been charged for a rescue...and paid it gladly. It's part of my budget under 'shit happens'. The 'shit happens' money goes towards a nice dinner somewhere after the trip is over to help celebrate the trip AND avoiding the shit.

Life's dangerous.

No doubt. But the alternative is worse...

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Not quite the same as ice climbing in bad weather, but, yes, you should assume any risk when engaging in risky activities. This is niether a slam on you, nor on your hiking skills, but why should the local community shell out $6,000 per hour to rescue you if you get into a bad spot? What makes you, personally, worth $6,000 per hour to society in general?

I guess for the same reason they shell out like money to rescue anyone else.

For the record, I have long held that should the need arise, I would gladly reimburse the cost of my rescue. It's morally right.

BTW....

1. Bears generally do not attack humans unless the human is interfering with the bear, or the cubs. There are exceptions, but those are rare.
2. An experienced hiker doe not generally fall. Something about checking your footing before you proceed, or watching where you're going come to mind.
3. If you know you must ford a stream, and most hikers plan their routes, rather than wandering aimlessly through the woods, shouldn't swimming be a part of your survival skill-set?

1. I know that. I just don't want to be the exception.

2. Experienced hikers fall. It's called an accident. It can be due to fatigue, carelessness, rain, damage to the trail like a fallen tree...any number of things.

3. I don't hike trails that call for precarious stream fords. Because I know I can't swim. Should I learn? Probably. You do everything you know you should do? Didn't think so.

I do believe you are being a bit oversensitive, but...knowing the risks involved, would you climb Mt Hood in the middle of winter as those folks did?

As a side note...PETA is upset with those folks because they risked the life of the dog

I hike in the winter. I don't mountain climb. Big difference.

PETA can blow me.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I guess for the same reason they shell out like money to rescue anyone else.

For the record, I have long held that should the need arise, I would gladly reimburse the cost of my rescue. It's morally right.

So why the fuss?

3. I don't hike trails that call for precarious stream fords. Because I know I can't swim. Should I learn? Probably. You do everything you know you should do? Didn't think so.

Nope. But I'm also willing to accept any consequences, negative or positive, of my actions. I also don't get in 'over my head' in most things unless ordered. A man has to know his limitations, right? Like I said before...I didn't mean to strike a nerve, but you choose your activities, not society.

I hike in the winter. I don't mountain climb. Big difference.

On, or off, established trails?

PETA can blow me.

As long as no animals are harmed, I guess they'd be up for that...

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

I only hike established, blazed trails regardless of season. Otherwise, it'd be called bushwahcking. Snakes like bushes. Do the math.

 

[MrBishop]

Yoohoo. Never said bad weather. I said middle of winter. Mt Hood has ice near the summit all year round.



Which is why you should prepare for the worst or stay out of the activity. Most folks do just that. Others just go for the 'thrill'.



No doubt. But the alternative is worse...

Not quite the same as ice climbing in bad weather, but, yes, you should assume any risk when engaging in risky activities.

You don't have to give up on the thrill because you go prepared...and you can't prepare for everything. No plan, no matter how well laid out, survives first contact with the enemy (in this case, Mother nature).

 

[Gonz]

The differnce between a nature walk thru the local woods & climbing a mountain in mid-winter is immense.

 

[MrBishop]

The differnce between a nature walk thru the local woods & climbing a mountain in mid-winter is immense.

So's the difference in the equipment that you need, the training and the skill-set.

Also: The cost difference if rescue is needed.

 

[Gato_Solo]

You don't have to give up on the thrill because you go prepared...and you can't prepare for everything. No plan, no matter how well laid out, survives first contact with the enemy (in this case, Mother nature).

You don't really buy that, do you? Lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. (another saying I like to use at work)

When I'm going to the desert, I don't pack certain things they like to give me...like a parka, long johns, or thermal socks...unless I'm going in the dead of winter, then I'll pack the long johns and the socks. Why? Because I know I'll never need the parka. I also don't pack an iron if I'm going to a hotel. I'm big on situational awareness as well. Its not just planning. Its reaction to situations as well that keep a person alive. Suffice it to say that its your job to know the situations you may run into and to plan accordingly.

 

[MrBishop]

You seriously can't pack for everything....you can pack trying to keep 80-90% of the baddies at bay, but everything?

I don't carry a fire extinguisher (just in case there's a forest fire). I don't have a snake-bite kit (no poisonous snakes around - even with global warming )
etc etc...

If you want protection vs. everything nature has/can throw at you...stay home.

 

[BB]

I like to hike.

That is, i'd like to hike, like i used to hike...

haven't been fell walking fer a fair while - will be off to the Pembrokeshire coast fer a long weekend start of march - there are plenty of coastal walks there, so hopefully will get out and enjoy a good walk.

ideally i'd get upto the lake district - theres a place where we scattered my dad's ashes - and a buried aged malt up there, waiting to be sipped and replaced ...

SNP makes a good point - he goes with a due level of preparedness - with experience, footwear, knife etc etc ... these mountian climbers were well prepared i beleive - not yahoos willy nilly climbing any mountain -

it's an angry backlash from me folx!

sounds on the surface a fair deal idea - but think it through and it's rotten to the core.

 

[chcr]

Why, BB? If you have almost any other type of accident or miscalculation, you are expected to have insurance or take financial responsibility for it. Yes, these folks were reasonably well prepared. It's the reason they aren't dead. They miscalculated the risks though. You're saying they shouldn't be held financially responsible? I have to disagree. You should consider the risks and make plans for every eventuality, shouldn't you?

 

[Gato_Solo]

You seriously can't pack for everything....you can pack trying to keep 80-90% of the baddies at bay, but everything?

Yes. You can. Your pack will be close to 80 pounds, but you can take everything you need....

I don't carry a fire extinguisher (just in case there's a forest fire). I don't have a snake-bite kit (no poisonous snakes around - even with global warming )
etc etc...

If you want protection vs. everything nature has/can throw at you...stay home.

No need for an extinguisher if you've got a folding shovel and enough sense not to light a bonfire for warmth and/or cooking. No need for a snakebite kit if you have proper footwear and avoid obvious lairs (piles of wood/rotting vegetation). This also includes a tent with a floor, mosquito netting, and a good sidearm in case you piss off the wrong carnivore. Most things tend to avoid you (as prey) or run from you. The ones that don't have no choice (cornered/injured).