Indoctrination 101

[MrBishop]

There is no need to get hostile. Just be chill.

The point I am trying to make is...well, I think C.S. Lewis said it best:

Lewis forgot the third option. Jesus never existed....therefore he is neither a lunatic, nor a divinity, but merely a character in a book used to speak a parable - which itself is largely ignored by those who proclaim to be his followers.

 

[catocom]

largely?
that'd be relative.

 

[randomJACKASS]

What I don't get is how Gotholic knows, even in the face of countess generations of men, motivated by ambition and political power and gain, what Jesus said and what he meant, when even very great theologians do not always agree.

Do you have inside info? Are you the new messiah? (Rhetorical and not meant to be negative, but more just silliness.)

 

[catocom]

it makes me laugh when people claim to know what God, and Jesus thinks,
or would to in today's times, when it's not from the written word, which
I believe to be historical.

 

[randomJACKASS]

It bothers me, that folks assume to know all that is right and true. My advice is mind your own fucking business, not everyone else's, be true to god as best you can and raise your children to do so too. Being true to god in my opinion means first loving god, and ourselves so we are fit to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. Don't tell me about the splinter in my eye when you have a plank in yours. As a matter of fact, don't tell me anything about how I must believe, just do the best to treat me as you wish me to treat you please! People learn nothing from being preached down at from a soapbox, in fact it hurts them more than anything. people learn by watching others live right and do right by example!

The thing is cato, it is all in how we look at it, and in order to live our lives, if we have to respect for the very concept of Jesus' teachings we have to imagine what he might think and use our best judgment, but mostly as best we can to love god and our neighbor even as we love ourselves. But I am preaching this to the choir here, no?

 

[catocom]

that's my understanding also.

I try to judge in the way I expect to Be judged, personally.

 

[randomJACKASS]

This one can be debated exhaustively but my unchangeable opinion, is that it is far more important to "act as if", and follow the basics of Jesus' teachings, regardless of who you think he actually was.

Believing he is lord and savior is truly meaningless if no action upon that premise is taken, but living as the teachings of Jesus would have you do, even if you are unsure of who he was, is being closer to god than those who "know" in my opinion.

 

[MrBishop]

it's unfortunate when certain groups use their ideals and morals and try and preach them and impose them on the rest of the population. It's a shame when it happens in Saudi Arabia and it's equally a shame when it's done in the USA.

 

[catocom]

it's unfortunate when certain groups use their ideals and morals and try and preach them and impose them on the rest of the population. It's a shame when it happens in Saudi Arabia and it's equally a shame when it's done in the USA.

and there is the crux of the matter, imho

 

[randomJACKASS]

it's unfortunate when certain groups use their ideals and morals and try and preach them and impose them on the rest of the population. It's a shame when it happens in Saudi Arabia and it's equally a shame when it's done in the USA.

Agreed, and as far as I can tell you are an atheist no?

Yet surely, minus the "God", part, or perhaps you define god as the world and its peoples, you agree with loving yourself and then your neighbor. You believe in do unto other as you would have them do unto you right?

If that is all true, than in my mind, you are more "saved" than many who purport to be "christian".

 

[MrBishop]

A friend of mine called me the most spiritual athiest that he knew. Perhaps agnostic fits me better...it depends on who's laying down the label, I suppose. Perhaps humanist is the closest of all..though I'm not overly fond of being pidgeon-holed in either case.

The love thy neighbour and 'golden rule' (among others) weren't created by Christianity, or Islam or Judaism or any other current religions...more like self-evident and self-interested truths co-opted by religions in general.

IMHO - if a God exists, he/she/it doesn't care what church you attend, who you pray to or which religion you're exposed to and espouse. He/she/it can see right through that thin fabric to how your actions reflect who you are.

You could level every religious institution to the ground, burn every supposed holy scripture, dismantle all the organisational heirarchy that is religion..eradicate it entirely and he/she/it wouldn't care. Why? Because it's all human construct...human interpretation or misinterpretation and approaches reality about as much as a ant holding a leaf resembles a 747. Man's attempt to understand something beyond his immediate grasp...put a label on it and own it.

IMO - we created god before god created us.

 

[randomJACKASS]

The golden rule was a rule before it was known. It is simply a universal truth that was tue before mankind existed on this planet. Pure logic, so live long and prosper!

 

[Gotholic]

See this is the problem. What I say means something completely different under your interpretation You assume to know what I am getting at, and you don't, you really don't....

I am not assuming. I am asking you to reconcile to what Jesus said to what you believe. I only ask this because you have stated you have found almost no fault with his teachings. If you just cherry pick what you liked that he said and just disregard other things he said that you do not like then I would know where you are coming from. But what is most interesting is that you said you find almost no fault with what he said and you believe there are other paths to God despite Jesus claiming other wise e.g., "Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the verity, and the life. no man cometh to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6). So, I am interested in how you reconcile with the aforementioned quoted verse. Now, if you just disregard that verse because you think Jesus was wrong here than fine. However, if you do not disregard it, then I would like to know how you can reconcile that verse to the belief you have that there are many paths to God. I ask because I really would like to know.

You essentially impose your beliefs as the facts, and seek your own misunderstandings and interpretations of my beliefs, based on your own biases and preconceived notions. This way I am wrong and you are superior in your way.

There is nothing more to say. You are obviously not going to even try to understand what I am saying, so I have better things to do with my time.

I am not imposing my beliefs. I am simply asking you to elaborate on yours.

Enjoy your religion and your sense of superiority and being "right". Judge others and condemn them to hell and damnation as you see fit, for not meeting up to what you think is the truth.

You do not even know my religion since you asked what it was. I have not condemned anyone to hell in this thread. You are jumping to conclusions about me when all I want is to know more about your beliefs.

You can interpret things any way you like, for my part in my heart, I feel I know better than that (in a 99% sense in any case). Personal experience tells me modern Christianity tries to put go into a box that it doesn't fit in. Personal experience shows me Christianity is not the "one true path" although some find the god that is the love and connectedness of all things through it. I have just seen too much real life evidence to the contrary. Modern day Christianity often really has quite little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

Again you state Christianity is not the one true path. I am really interested in how you reconcile that with the aforementioned verse.

I really have just completely lost interest. I am quite comfortable with my spirituality, and quite confident that it is what is right and best for me. You are not going to "show me" or evangelize me, so find something more constructive to do please.

I am not stating my beliefs are superior to yours. All that I am asking is some clarification on your beliefs.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

The golden rule was a rule before it was known. It is simply a universal truth that was tue before mankind existed on this planet. Pure logic, so live long and prosper!

very very popular across the Cretaceous-Paleogene periods.

 

[catocom]

In the OKJV, it says "In the beginning was the Word"...
John 1:1

and in the historical sense of the world....
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"
gen 1:1

then I venture some on what was in between... (mostly for entertainment)
the conflict with Satan...

this is my belief system

 

[spike]

Now, if you just disregard that verse because you think Jesus was wrong here than fine.

That would make the most sense. Jesus was wrong about a lot of things.

 

[catocom]

so you DO believe in Jesus.

 

[spike]

Believe he existed? I have no idea. But he was wrong in many of the stories attributed to him.

 

[catocom]

 

[spike]

???