London shaken by explosions

[chcr]

t's still 'innocent until proven guilty'

Recent events in London say differently. Every one of the bombers gave the appearance of being unconnected to the terrorists, at least on the surface. Until and unless the Muslim's who are uninvolved or against the terrorists (separate groups, too) start policing their own, it needs to be presumed suspicious and guilty till proven innocent.

 

[Winky]

Until and unless the Muslim's who are uninvolved or against the terrorists (separate groups, too) start policing their own,

Yeah and?

 

[MrBishop]

In theory yes. In practice not so much

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[size=+1]- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759)
[/size]

[size=+1]It fits...and is a perfect example of how terrorism sometimes works.
[/size]

 

[freako104]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[size=+1]- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759)
[/size]

[size=+1]It fits...and is a perfect example of how terrorism sometimes works.
[/size]

Indeed. Sadly though I believe that quote has been falling on deaf ears

 

[chcr]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania(1759)


It fits...and is a perfect example of how terrorism sometimes works.

That's why I call it distracting the terrorists by giving them what they want.

 

[MrBishop]

Lets see what freedoms are potentially up against the wall.

Association
Assembly
Freedom of religion
Protection from wrongful prosecution
All equal before the law despite race, gender, religion etc...
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair, and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

well...you get the idea. Many of these are being trod upon to help catch terrorists. Ensuring safety for the general populace, but its the general populace who are most affected by the loss of those freedoms. Terrorists work around the law...they don't need those freedoms...everyone else does though.

 

[The Other One]

Granted...but sending them all to Gitmo, like TOO is suggesting is not the way to go. I'm very big on the idea of exporting people who commit crimes back to their hometown...but not on suspition alone.

t's still 'innocent until proven guilty'

Sounds like they're living pretty high on the hog to me. Who wouldn't want to be detained in a summer camp like this:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050710/pl_afp/usattacksguantanamo_050710195205
Sun Jul 10, 3:52 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Inmates from the US-led war on terror held at the prison camp at the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba are well treated, play outdoor sports, and have access to a broad Muslim-approved menu, a US senator who traveled to the site said.


US Senator Pat Roberts, a conservative Republican from Kansas, said on "Fox News Sunday" that he just returned from visiting the Guantanamo detention site.

"They have a Muslim menu down there of 113 dishes," said Roberts, chairman of the US Senate Intelligence Committee.

"I saw them playing soccer. I saw them playing ping-pong. I saw them playing ... I think it was volleyball," he said.

US camp guards "strictly observe with reverence all of the prayer calls, five times a day, 20 minutes," he said.

"And in regards to the health care, my word, they have better health care than many of my small communities in Kansas."

According to Roberts inmate treatment there "is carrots, not sticks. We are treating people humanely."

Meanwhile the US soldiers guarding the inmates "are getting very rough treatment from some of these detainees -- and I don't call them 'detainees,' I call them 'terrorists' -- throwing excrement at them and everything else."

If you simply ship them back to their homeland don't you think they'd be back on the bus the next day to do it all over again?

That suspected terrorists are "Innocent until proven guilty" is a nice line in your country, but here it could cost innocent American lives. I see nothing wrong with detention camps until this is over.

 

[MrBishop]

Lets see...hmm...a senator is coming to visit. Let's show him the nude pile-ons and the correct way to flush a Quran without blocking up the piping ...umh... NOT!

I'd bet you that the lot of them would trade that game of volleyball for a judge, a lawyer, a jury of their peers and a possible trip back home to see their families.

 

[The Other One]

3. By all means, attack the terrorists where they are.

Haven't we? We're fighting them in Afghanistan and Iraq, fending them off in London and picking them up in Lodi and New Jersey.

Still waiting.

Your idea must be like Kerry's top secret plan to defeat terrorism.

The second most deadly terrorist act on American soil was perpetrated not my Muslims but by your fellows.

Would your Muslims be the "moderate" ones?

 

[Winky]

Bisho
back in their 'home countries' the way the indigenous population deal’s
with doods like this is by piling them into

mass graves

since we don't have anything even closely resembling
that option we'll just have to let em' stay at Club Gitmo.

 

[Gonz]

My Mulah went to Gitmo & all I got was this lousy T-Shirt...

 

[Winky]

 

[The Other One]

Lets see what freedoms are potentially up against the wall.

Association
Assembly
Freedom of religion
Protection from wrongful prosecution
All equal before the law despite race, gender, religion etc...
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair, and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Ding Ding Ding Ding!!
I think you're on the right path now, Ace! A very apt description of what the U.S. would be like if the Muslim Terrorists set up shop here. Of course, those citizens that weren't killed would be converted to Islam, and then they wouldn't need those rights. Would your country fight to defend the mutual border you share with the U.S. of Islam or would the radical imams you harbor wave them on in?

Terrorists work around the law...they don't need those freedoms...

Ding Ding Again!

If it is so obvious that terrorists work around the law, don't fight under their country's flag, (for that matter al Quada isn't a country and doesn't have a flag), don't wear a uniform, pop out of their holes only to murder then go underground again, why try to give civil rights to them? Some people demand that they should be treated with the same kid gloves that we handle their Kuran in GITMO with. Who could that be?

I'll take "Treasonous seditious weasels who can't get over losing the election twice for $500, Alex."

 

[The Other One]

What Happens in GITMO Stays in GITMO....

 

[Winky]

I'm just trying to be a father,
Raise a daughter and a son,
Be a lover to their mother,
Everything to everyone.
Up and at 'em bright and early,
I'm all business in my suit,
Yeah, I'm dressed for success from my head down to my boots,
I don't do it for money, there's still bills that I can't pay,
I don't do it for the glory, I just do it anyway,
Providing for our future's my responsibility,
Yeah I'm real good under pressure, being all that I can be,
And I can't call in sick on Mondays when the weekends been to strong,
I just work straight through the holidays,
And sometimes all night long.
You can bet that I stand ready when the wolf growls at the door,
Hey, I'm solid, hey I'm steady, hey I'm true down to the core,
And I will always do my duty, no matter what the price,
I've counted up the cost, I know the sacrafice,
Oh, and I don't want to die for you,
But if dyin's asked of me,
I'll bear that cross with an honor,
'Cause freedom don't come free.
I'm an american soldier, an american,
Beside my brothers and my sisters I will proudly take a stand,
When liberty's in jeopardy I will always do what's right,
I'm out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight.
American soldier, I'm an American,
An American,
An American Soldier

Toby Keith an American Soldier

 

[chcr]

Haven't we? We're fighting them in Afghanistan and Iraq, fending them off in London and picking them up in Lodi and New Jersey.

Still waiting.

Your idea must be like Kerry's top secret plan to defeat terrorism.



Would your Muslims be the "moderate" ones?

4. Again, none of this addresses the point.

*sigh* Clearly you are never going to address it, so fine, whatever you say, carry on. Clearly you are the sole font of all knowledge and wisdom.

 

[Winky]

Now daddy didn't like trouble, but if it came along,
Everyone that knew him
knew which side that he would be on.
He never was a hero,
or this county's shining light,
But you could always find him standing up
for what he thought was right.

He'd say you've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.
You've got to be your own man,
not a puppet on a string.
Never compromise what's right,
and uphold your family name.
You've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.

We might have been better off
or owned a bigger house,
if daddy had done more given in
or a little more backing down.
But we always had plenty just living his advice.
What ever you do today
you'll have to sleep with tonight.

He'd say you've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.
You've got to be your own man not a
puppet on a string.
Never compromise what's right
and uphold your family name.
You've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.

I know that things are different
than they were in daddy's day,
but I still believe what makes a man
really hasn't changed.

He'd say you've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.
You've got to be your own man not a
puppet on a string.
Never compromise what's right
and uphold your family name.
You've got to stand for something
or you'll fall for anything.

Now daddy didn't like trouble, but if it came along,
Everyone that knew him
knew which side that he would be on.
He never was a hero,
or this county's shining light,
But you could always find him standing up
for what he thought was right.

Aaron Tippin

 

[chcr]

What Happens in GITMO Stays in GITMO....

What happens in GITMO should stay in GITMO, but it doesn't.

 

[Winky]

What happened in the London Tube should too

but it won't!

 

[chcr]

What happened in the London Tube should too

but it won't!

No, and that's the whole point (although no one seems to get it). The SAS made a mistake. They said, "Whoops, we fucked up," explained how it happened and went about their business, as they should have. If it had been someone connected with the bombers, you would be correct. All the liberal whining about how horrible it is and conservative blustering about how justified it was is meaningless. It happened, it was a regrettable mistake. Covering it up or trying to justify it would have lowered them to the level of the terrorists. I think they handled it the way they should have.

GITMO, OTOH, houses the enemy. Treat theirs the way they would treat ours and keep your mouths shut. Unforturnately that isn't the way it happens.