Negative reinforcement

[Shadowfax]

 

[flavio]

Nope, as always you must be 100% right and we are all sinners beneath you, that's all. All hail Flav.

Looks to me that you must be 100% right and everything else is a "pile of bullshit" right?

As usual, I present my side of a discussion and back up what I say with some evidence.

...and as usual other people start with the personal insults.

Just not capable of debating a topic without them though huh?

 

[chcr]

Well, I haven't hurled any personal insults, but until you have children you simply have no idea. It is the most life changing experience you will ever have. Honestly, most people who have children have no idea. Dismissing a tried and successful way of doing something because it offends your sensibilities does not serve you very well. I agree that there is child abuse, this is not what we were discussing. At some point, you have to draw the line with a child, because I promise that most of them will keep pushing till you make them stop. If this involves a spanking, then that's what you do. Not all children need that kind of reinforcement, but some of them do. I don't think you do the child (or anyone that has to deal with him in the future) any favors by letting them get away with something out of squeamishness.

Just my opinion.

 

[flavio]

Well, I haven't hurled any personal insults

no you haven't. Thank you

Dismissing a tried and successful way of doing something because it offends your sensibilities does not serve you very well.

Dismissing a mountain of research that shows negative effects and equally effective other methods does not serve you very well. It seems that they have found better ways.

Smoking used to be considered a successful way of keeping pregnant women's weight down. We've since found that it has negative effects and use other methods.

These things do offend my sensibilities because they likely are harmful to children.

I agree that there is child abuse, this is not what we were discussing.

Agreed, not what we are discussing here.

At some point, you have to draw the line with a child, because I promise that most of them will keep pushing till you make them stop.

Agreed.

If this involves a spanking, then that's what you do. Not all children need that kind of reinforcement, but some of them do.

Ok, I'll consider that possibility. For the purposes of this discussion though I'm going to stick with the consensus of the research that indicates that as a general rule this is not true. Sure, there might be some odd cases here and there.

I don't think you do the child (or anyone that has to deal with him in the future) any favors by letting them get away with something out of squeamishness.

There are more than the two choices of "letting them get away with something" or "using physical punishment". There are other options.

I appreciate you keeping the debate friendly

 

[Professur]

Yep, if you're really determined to use violence on children you're not going to like what they have to say about it. Easier just to close your mind and swing that rod at them.

There's a manifest difference between spanking a child and beating one in anger. Yelling while spanking is the first sign of the latter. A calm single shot to the buttocks is not the same thing

Flav, you obviously aren't reading what anyone without a doctorate is writing, so I'm not gonna bother talking to you anymore about it. You've got it locked into your mind that spanking is violent. And no amount of discussion is gonna change that. Obviously, there is no shades of grey in your world.

 

[flavio]

Flav, you obviously aren't reading what anyone without a doctorate is writing, so I'm not gonna bother talking to you anymore about it. You've got it locked into your mind that spanking is violent. And no amount of discussion is gonna change that. Obviously, there is no shades of grey in your world.

Check this out. I haven't seen much evidence presented in this thread or anywhere else that physical punishment is good for children. If you can find any studies that support your viewpoint then I would be glad to check them out.

On the other hand you have it locked into your mind that physical punishment is good for children and no amount of scientific evidence is going to change your mind. So you really have no business at all accusing me of being close minded.

You are ignoring mutliple studies from a couple of countries and I simply don't have a lot of faith in your "101" class. Especially when you have such a low opinion of children that they can't be reasoned with and the only time they would see things differently than you is if their viewpoint is "broken".

Hopefully you are able to see the difference there.

There's a manifest difference between spanking a child and beating one in anger. Yelling while spanking is the first sign of the latter. A calm single shot to the buttocks is not the same thing

I do see the shades of grey of course and there is a large difference between spankings, beatings, and torture. The studies I posted namely concentrate on spanking-type punishment since I thought that's what we had focused on.

 

[a13antichrist]

. However, Columbine type atrocities are strictly 21st century.

Yeah, kinda hard to mow people down by the 10s when your semi-automatic won't be invented for another couple of hundred years...

flav does have a point though: he is the only one producing researched evidence whereas those for spanking are judging on experience and/or instinct. I think we're all in agreement that continual spanking, especially without subesquent comforting, can be damaging for the child. flav is right in as much as the fact that we have decided for ourselves that we're not going to eliminate spanking from our available repetoire of punishments, in spite of the large amount of studies advising against it. I'm perfectly fine with that - studies are not supposed to dictate how you should do things, but merely to provide you with better tools to come to your own conclusions.

It is a good question, in fact, that even if we don't believe spanking to be the work of the devil, why do we feel the need to pursue it when there are, presumably, alternatives just as effective that do not have this doubt surrounding them? My answer would be that these methods don't have the years of practice behind them demonstrating their effectiveness that spanking does. We're talking about raising your kid - better to stick with what you know works than to risk a method you're not familiar with turning your kid into a glasshouse.

flav is not being close-minded. I generally would listen more to studies than to "traditional beliefs" but in this case I am convinced of the benefits to the contrary. Maybe because I feel that with a bit of forethought, it can be done in a manner such as to eradicate much of the presumed danger - more or less in line with what ris said about it not being the spanking as much as the lack of affection afterwards or the equivalent rewarding of positive acts. Maybe I'm wrong, but personally, I'm willing to take that risk.

 

[a13antichrist]

Whatsmore, it's true in fact that those of us supporting it haven't provided a hell of a lot in the way of counter-arguments, other than "I have kids so I know it works". I know that that wouldn't convince me if I didn't already share the point of view so I don't think we can hold that against flav here.

 

[Leslie]

don't make me come in here and stomp on this thread too...play nice boys.

 

[chcr]

Dismissing a mountain of research that shows negative effects and equally effective other methods does not serve you very well. It seems that they have found better ways.

I spent thirty seconds looking for what I found. This leads me to believe that there is an equally large body of evidence "for." I don't really have the time or the inclination to look farther. I make my judgements from life experiences. 90% of the people I know who are raising their kids with no form of corporal punishment are raising little monsters. This is just personal observation, but at my age, I know a lot of people with kids. Finally, I have met several psychologists and psychiatrists over the years, although none in a professional capacity. I can only remember one who was reasonably well adjusted himself and he builds custom cabinets for a living. You should stop assuming that because someone has an education that impresses you, that they necessarily know what they're talking about. My experience is that most people (myself included) are making it up as they go along. If you can't learn from your experiences, you can't learn.

 

[flavio]

I spent thirty seconds looking for what I found. This leads me to believe that there is an equally large body of evidence "for."

Yes, a homeschool mom who's into spanking. Then two other links that don't actually advocate spanking.

I can tell I searched for much more than 30 seconds through the major psychiatric/psychological asociations and child/family centers in the US, Canada, and England. I don't think your going to find much evidence out there that actually encourages physical punishment.

I don't really have the time or the inclination to look farther. I make my judgements from life experiences.

Sure, no reason to pay attention to scientific data. No reason to research anything at all is there? Life experience can tell you that it's good for pregnant women to smoke and smoking around kids is ok, a little research will tell you otherwise.

I don't understand this attitude. Would you use life experience to learn computer networking, car mechanics, nutrition, or to get prescriptions? There's data out there that you can learn from.

90% of the people I know who are raising their kids with no form of corporal punishment are raising little monsters. This is just personal observation, but at my age, I know a lot of people with kids.

Apparently you were unaware that that there were any other choices beseides hitting your children and letting them get away with everything. So I guess maybe these other parents must not know about these other options as well. Let them know.

You should stop assuming that because someone has an education that impresses you, that they necessarily know what they're talking about. My experience is that most people (myself included) are making it up as they go along. If you can't learn from your experiences, you can't learn.

Just stop listening to the experts in any field and make it all up. Don't listen to doctors...prescribe medicine for your own children, don't listen to nutrition experts...just make stuff up as you go along.

Some of these studies have years and years of data. If you can't from the mass of data that's available then you can't learn at all.

 

[outside looking in]

flav has posted no more solid evidence against corporal punishment than anyone else has for it. All of the "scientific evidence" has the obvious flaw that it isn't isolating the variable of interest. It's right there in front of your face, if you care to read it with a bit of thought.

I think it's telling, flav, how you you use the terms "swing the rod," "hit," and "child abuse" so often. You clearly associated spanking with some violent activity. A typical three year old injures themselves more in twenty minutes of playing than a lifetime of "spankings" ever could. You have some apparently warped sense of what a spanking is, or are at least too stubborn to admit that you know the difference between spanking and "hitting" a child. It wouldn't serve your cause too well I suppose.

So... if you care to present any meaningful scientific studies, I'd be happy to comment on them. Until then, I'll continue dismissing them as unscientific - because they are.

 

[chcr]

Yes, a homeschool mom who's into spanking. Then two other links that don't actually advocate spanking.

Just that it isn't as harmful as the popular breastbeaters contend. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but most behavioral "scientific" studies start with the conclusion and interpret the data to support it. This is not science by any definition I'm familiar with. Since I was not there to observe the results myself, I find it difficult to accept them at face value. I believe that which has been demonstrated to be true. In my experience, corporal punishment works. It's unlikely that you can convince me otherwise, just as in my opinion you won't understand until confronted with the reality of children.

 

[a13antichrist]

flav has posted no more solid evidence against corporal punishment than anyone else has for it. All of the "scientific evidence" has the obvious flaw that it isn't isolating the variable of interest.

To an extent, true. But he is the only one making the effort to find research, rather than just opinions...

 

[Shadowfax]

but clearly the personal experience of a lot of people here are of no importance, because "science" says otherwise.


this may be hard for a few people, but you know what? conclusions of scientific research aren't always right...
for some reason we just have to totally ignore personal experiences because some Prof. Dr. Herr Something says otherwise?

believe what you want to believe flavio, but just stop trying to fight your opinion into the extreme man

 

[chcr]

And have a beer.

 

[outside looking in]

I object to the label of "scientific" that is repeatedly applied to the "evidence" posted.

 

[flavio]

flav has posted no more solid evidence against corporal punishment than anyone else has for it. All of the "scientific evidence" has the obvious flaw that it isn't isolating the variable of interest.

I think if you read again with a bit of thought you'll find that you are wrong.

I think it's telling, flav, how you you use the terms "swing the rod,"

Puter brought up the rod...do you think that is telling?

"hit,"

Yes, hit. Look up the word if you're not sure.

and "child abuse"

Now you're just making things up...why?

A typical three year old injures themselves more in twenty minutes of playing than a lifetime of "spankings" ever could.

Bullshit

You have some apparently warped sense of what a spanking is, or are at least too stubborn to admit that you know the difference between spanking and "hitting" a child. It wouldn't serve your cause too well I suppose.

Again, look up the word. Trying to dumb things down by using a more comfortable word doesn't serve your cause.

So... if you care to present any meaningful scientific studies, I'd be happy to comment on them. Until then, I'll continue dismissing them as unscientific - because they are.

I suspect the only studies you would find scientific are ones that encourage hitting children. There is nothing wrong with these studies and I challenge you to find any that support your view.

Some people like to err on the other side of caution....others somehow think "if all these doctors are telling me not to hit kids....they must be crazy!" After all what's more natural then hitting a kid?

 

[flavio]

Just that it isn't as harmful as the popular breastbeaters contend. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but most behavioral "scientific" studies start with the conclusion and interpret the data to support it. This is not science by any definition I'm familiar with. Since I was not there to observe the results myself, I find it difficult to accept them at face value.

Apparently you did not read the studies. Maybe you should before comenting on them further.

I believe that which has been demonstrated to be true. In my experience, corporal punishment works. It's unlikely that you can convince me otherwise,

Ok, again you haven't read the studies apparently or you wouldn't have said this as they do not argue that corporal punishment doesn't work. They indicate that there are many negative effects that can be avoided by using equally effective alternative methods.

 

[Shadowfax]

believe what you want to believe flavio, but just stop trying to fight your opinion into the extreme man

is it your ultimate goal to keep on going and going and going and going and going and going until you've pissed everyone else off?

give it a rest man. thinking differently is one thing, but trying to defend your opinion (on whether people should or should NOT give their kids a slap if they've been highly annoying or did something very wrong) into the extreme just pushes people's patience.

you just don't know when to stop, do you?