Oil for Food humanitarian aid?

ris

New Member
not sure democracy will be as easy to settle into iraq as it might seem. a country as divided and fractuous with its many tribal and religious splits has been held together by forceful powers that prevent them from internal conflict.
a powerful military hand is likely to sit over them again but holding the parts together in the long run is going to be very tricky and the longer that the us and uk [et al] are there the more unease is felt there and beyond.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
I've never looked into, why the hell did your government draw the state lines like they did? Talk about a miscalculation. :D


unofficial Gonzo Porpaganda Iraq attacks Kuwait
 

ris

New Member
hehe, the best bit is they really did get some chap to walk around with a stick drawing the border in the sand with a stick. at least that's what i read :D
 

ris

New Member
i saw that, not the first time they've lobbed something over the border this war, won't be the last either.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
ris said:
hehe, the best bit is they really did get some chap to walk around with a stick drawing the border in the sand with a stick. at least that's what i read
:rofl2:
 

madrin

New Member
i've yet to be convinced of iraq's connection to international terrorism. most of the things i have picked up have been supposition and assumption. if i was a cynical enough man i'd say that saddam hussein is a target of convenience - his perpetual state of breach of 1991 resolutions makles him an ideal target at almost any time.

He's an ideal AND convenient target, that much is true. Which is MORE the case? Not sure..I'd hazard a guess of convenient....

as for international terrorism...I'd make an odd argument to the contrary, unless you go with a strict definition of international terrorism. Would Israel be "international" , or merely regional ? In this case Hussein has funneled about 35 million bucks to families of suicide bombers through the ALF....

I'd say thats regional, but not any better because of it. But while it sounds like a large sum, it really isn't for m the standpoint of cost of a major terrorism campaign. Beyond that the money trail gets lost....

Is the 35 million bad enough? IF we , or your country, by treaty or otherwise, supports Israel , is that not REASON enough to put an end to the regime? If not, then what else in addition should be required?

THESE are the questions everyone has to pose to themselves and others...a bigger picture.

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/03/13/saddam/

MADrin
 

ris

New Member
if the israel-palestine affair is the root of it then i'd rahter see it acted on directly than in this way.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
I've been using the $25,000. to homicide bombers case for awhile & it must be more Gonzo Propaganda.

Finally I find a story that backs me up :D

Saddam stokes war with suicide bomber cash
March 26 2002


The Iraqi leader's payments to the families of dead Palestinian terrorists means more trouble for Yasser Arafat, writes Paul McGeough in the West Bank.


The hall was packed and the intake of breath was audible as a special announcement was made to the war widows of the West Bank - Saddam Hussein would pay $US25,000 ($47,000) to the family of each suicide bomber as an enticement for others to volunteer for martyrdom in the name of the Palestinian people.

The men at the top table then opened Saddam's chequebook and, as the names of 47 martyrs were called, family representatives went up to sign for cheques written in US dollars.

Those of two suicide bombers were the first to be paid the new rate of $US25,000 and those whose relatives had died in other clashes with the Israeli military were given $US10,000 each.

The $US500,000 doled out in this impoverished community yesterday means that the besieged Iraqi leader now has contributed more than $US10 million to grieving Palestinian families since the new intifada began 18 months ago.

But the timing of this clear signal that Saddam is stoking the Middle East conflict with his new $US15,000 bonus to encourage more suicide bombers - and exclusive pictures from the distribution ceremony, which was attended by the Herald - could make it more difficult for the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, to manage his already strained relationship with the United States.

Because the Palestinians and the Israelis have been unable to agree to a ceasefire during the US-brokered talks that began in Jerusalem two weeks ago, Mr Arafat may be denied an opportunity to put the Palestinian case directly to the US Vice-President, Dick Cheney.

As well, the Israelis have yet to decide if they will lift Mr Arafat's effective house arrest to allow him to travel to Beirut for this week's summit of Arab leaders that is to discuss a Saudi Arabian plan to end the crisis.

And now, the US and Israel will have the opportunity to accuse Mr Arafat of being in the embrace of two of President Bush's three "axis of evil" countries, Iraq and Iran.

The New York Times reported on Saturday the suspicion of US and Israeli intelligence agencies that Mr Arafat had developed an alliance with Iran to import weapons worth millions of dollars to be used by Palestinian fighters.

Mr Arafat has denied any knowledge of a recent shipment of Iranian arms seized by the Israelis on its way to Palestine.

But he may be hard pressed to deny knowledge of a public ceremony on his own territory, during which supporters of Saddam handed out $US500,000 and encouraged others to become suicide bombers with the blessing of the Iraqi leader.

The US will also be keen to use Saddam's provocative intrusion into the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as another reason for its planned military strike against him.

Yesterday's ceremony at Tulkarm, about 90 kilometres north of Jerusalem, was the first public distribution organised by the Arab Liberation Front, a small PLO faction closely aligned with Saddam's Ba'ath Party. Previously, the cheques were delivered privately by officials of the front to the homes of martyr families.

A senior front official, Ma'amoon Tayeh, said that the extra $US15,000 was to encourage more Palestinians to volunteer as suicide bombers to help "confirm the legitimacy of our national questions".

He said: "Saddam Hussein considers Palestine to be a governate of Iraq and he thinks the same of the Palestinian martyrs as he does of Iraqi martyrs - they all are martyrs for the whole Arab nation."

Dr Hassan Khraisheh, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council who told the crowd he had just returned from a solidarity conference in Baghdad, said some families believed the money should be sent back to Iraq because of the hardships imposed by sanctions; others used the money to " buy weapons to defend Palestine".

Later, he praised Iraq as the only Arab country officially donating to the Palestinian cause.

"The Saudis used to give $US4000 to the martyrs, but now it depends on public donations.

"Saddam Hussein's $US25,000 is a message to those who might offer themselves as martyrs that their families will be supported ..."

Gonzo Propaganda Source
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
madrin said:
...not necessarily so. In these cases one would probably want to take a look at WHY those actions were felt to be "justified" .

whatever those reasons are, it isn't right just because they feel/voted/whateververbyouwanttoputhere it is right to do it.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
ris said:
if the israel-palestine affair is the root of it then i'd rahter see it acted on directly than in this way.

Then we're back to Palestine not existing, as a country. We'd be forced to take on Lebanon, Syria & possibly Egypt. SA too?
 

madrin

New Member
whatever those reasons are, it isn't right just because they feel/voted/whateververbyouwanttoputhere it is right to do it.

I might have screwed up the explanation of that one, Luis....

those "reasons" relate directly to your comparison of intent, and the historical examples you lay out. Point being that THOSE historical actions took place, and we know what was behind them. THIS one has yet to conclude, and NO ONE has any idea what's fully behind this. One can speculate or quote whatever publication he or she needs to front a theory, but that's all it'd be..just a theory, not factual by anyones stretch of the imagination....

When it's over it'll become clear. So right now it's neither proven "right" nor "wrong"...I suspect it'll prove out "right" , but I wouldn't claim to have incontrovertible evidence from ANY source.

In the end, as I mentioned....one side is going to be correct and the opposing view will have to eat crow....and it'll be that clear.

MADrin
 

ris

New Member
yeah, why not :D

seeing as the palestinians now have set a prime minister with real powers [as the us and others has insisted they must do before any further peace talks] i think it might be good politic for that action to take place.

i think a concerted action to broker a peace deal between the two sides would go a long way to settling many islamic doubts as to the us and uk's view of the muslim world.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
madrin said:
and it'll be that clear.

Not necessarily. Many have already moved to position themslves to be right, or at least not so wrong, after the fact.

Take Tom Daschle...he see's proof, votes for the US war on Iraq & immediately starts whining that he wants his vote back. In teh end he can say;
A) I voted for that war, or
B)I've regretted it ever since that day.

THAT is why I support people like Bush...even if he's wrong, he had the fortitude to stand for something.
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Either he has the fortitude needed to stand for something or the stupidity to not change his mind.

Pick one.
 

ris

New Member
i suppose thats part of the reason i don't see a right or wrong side to almost everything in the world. one man's right is anothers abhorency.

standing for principals is to be admired, but i think the notion that it is absolutely right must consistently be doubted.
 

madrin

New Member
HA!

Ok, Daschle....

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that his political fate rests solely on the outcome of this action...

Just a guess, but I'm pretty sure people on both sides of the aisle know what Daschle is all about. it seems like people are generally distancing themselves from him....he's subtlely radioactive right now...

MADrin
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
ris, I'll refer you to post #110 in this thread...I'm not debating the reasoning anymore.

madrin-he's only one of many (and the worst continuous offender in my book)
 
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