Oil for Food humanitarian aid?

[outside looking in]

By the way, your callusness towards civilian deaths is disgusting.

Callousness? Thanks for making my point for me. Given a choice of one person dying, or two, which would you choose? Are you callous for choosing the lesser of two evils?

Instead of accepting and admitting that the world is a complex, dirty place and not the fairy never-never land that you fantasize, you try to figure out how to twist my statement to say that I am indifferent to other people's suffering. What an arrogant pretentios prick. That is precisely why you're so intolerable, and you do it again and again.

Does it not seem at least logically possible that someone could be against war and people dying in general, and still believe that this war and the people that die as a direct result of this war are preferrable to the alternative?

 

[flavio]

Everyone else was aware of them Flav, except maybe you...

Oh, I've been aware from the start.

 

[PT]

You've been aware that you are just as biased to your point of view as Osli, Madrin, Gonz, and me are to ours?

 

[outside looking in]

I've never denied my bias. You consistently do...

I never denied my bias but you consistently like to act is if you're not. It has been very childish of you.

Wow, yet another parroting of my statement. It reminds me of my "I'm made of rubber and you are made of glue..." days.

But please, do go ahead and post the instances where I denied my bias. I asked you to do the same for my insulting other forum members... I suppose you will have some excuse this time as well?

 

[flavio]

Callousness? Thanks for making my point for me. Given a choice of one person dying, or two, which would you choose? Are you callous for choosing the lesser of two evils?

Given a choice of killing people or not which would you choose?

Instead of accepting and admitting that the world is a complex, dirty place and not the fairy never-never land t

Thanks again for the brilliant stuff...this is pure gold.

Does it not seem at least logically possible that someone could be against war and people dying in general, and still believe that this war and the people that die as a direct result of this war are preferrable to the alternative?

Sure, isn't it also logically possible that there are alternatives better than the current plan?

 

[flavio]

do go ahead and post the instances where I denied my bias

After you

 

[flavio]

You've been aware that you are just as biased to your point of view as Osli, Madrin, Gonz, and me are to ours?

Hell yeah, pro-war vs. anti-war.

It's what makes for a debate. A few on the pro-war side seems to have penchant for using insults instead it seems though.

 

[PT]

Hell yeah, pro-war vs. anti-war.

It's what makes for a debate.

Ok, carry on then.

 

[outside looking in]

Given a choice of killing people or not which would you choose?

I'd choose not killing people. Sadly, there was no such option in this case. It is tragic, but such is the real world.

Does it not seem at least logically possible that someone could be against war and people dying in general, and still believe that this war and the people that die as a direct result of this war are preferrable to the alternative?

Sure, isn't it also logically possible that there are alternatives better than the current plan? [/quote]Of course it is. In my opinion, those alternatives were hopelessly optimistic and unrealistic. In your opinion, they were not. We're both entitled to our opinion.

My belief that they were unrealistic, and that the current plan was the best option, does not make me "callous" about the effects of acting on that plan. It does not make me immune to the tragedies that have and will occure. It does not make me immoral, unethical, or any other such rubbish. It makes me biased. Period.

 

[outside looking in]

do go ahead and post the instances where I denied my bias

After you

lol, the childlike analogy just goes deeper and deeper! I posted two such statements from you just a few posts above.

So, in keeping with the tone you've established...

"nah-nahny-boo-boo!"

 

[RD_151]

The ones in the middle just keep their mouths shut about it.

I a guess they probably do. I'm shocked how few people actually speak about it at work even, or anywhere for that matter. If i didn't know better, I'd suspect there is no war! Maybe its wag the dog, maybe its all being shot some where on location by hollywoods finest Everyone I have talked to about the war though, out side of OT central is against it. Ok, with one exception, my right-wing father. He's as pro-Bush as you can be though. Bush could do no wrong for him, so how could he be against the war. Well, maybe he's anti Saddam as well. He even backed Clinton on his bombing of Saddam even during the Monica fiasco. Maybe people just generally hate Saddam. Maybe thats why people just don't seem to speak out against it too much. Or maybe its cuz I'm in the south. I bet if I were in SF, or NYC I'd have a different perception of this.

Its hard to believe, but I actually consider myself to be in the middle. I don't care for Saddam, so thats fine, I'm not really a humanitarian by any stretch, but I dont' care for Bush either. My only concern is the price of it all. General war in the region isn't a pretty picture. Neither is the rest of the world hating us, or being trapped into another Vietnam. Well, in any event I view the war as illegal, and a violation of international law, just as I did Kosovo. As much as I'd like to see Saddam out of their and 'democracy' in Iraq (not that I ever think that will happen) its still a tough sell. Ok, maybe most of America bought it, but I'm still not one of em. Kill Saddam, neutralize his gov't, but don't start installing puppet gov'ts favorable to the US all around the globe. Thats bad policy, and it can come back to haunt you!

Well, too late now, whats done is done.

As much as I'm against the war, and I think its illegal, I'm curious what those opposed really think we should do at this point? Should we simply stop? What? It's not like we really can at this point! What would you do if you could change things? Obviously we can't undo what has been done, but is there really an alternative to going the rest of the way with this? I don't think their is, but I'm just curious what those against the war might do.

Personally, even though I'm opposed, at this point, I wouldn't choose to stop it! I'd probably push for even more devistating attacks and even more overwhelming force to end it quickly. But as I said, I'm not exactly a humanitarian either. I disagree with the war more on principle than on moral grounds. I feel bad for the Iraqi people, don't get me wrong, but trying to avoid civilian casualties is only gonna lead to more in the long-run in my opinion.

 

[flavio]

Fair enough, I'll have to disagree though.

With my own biased view of course.

 

[madrin]

The point that you consistently miss, Flavio, the one I've made to you, is that one end of the bias is not offset by the other to arrive at "truth".

I pointed it out in this thread, where you asked for anyone to use their conservative sources to offset yours...to which I said that doing so wouldn't confirm anything either way....that either side had the same extent of bias and was thus not "supportive" of an argument to the contrary....

...and then you go on with your typical smartass parade of buffoonery, reaching the pinnacle of hypocrisy in a stunningly short amount of time...

all anyone has to do is look back over the last 10 posts you put up. You're on the defensive....so be it....but for someone who claims to be making points and backing them up, well..it's pretty clear that your game here has nothing to do with valid discourse...much as you'd like to believe that...

still into those wicked one liners too, I see....

....here, have another couple feet of rope....

MADrin

 

[Professur]

Am I the only one who remembers to think before opening their mouth here? I only read the first page, and didn't even bother with the other two.


Point one. Anyone taking food and not shouting pro saddam slogans is getting their tongues cut out later that night.
Point two. Cities had flowing water. Water doesn't flow uphill without pumps. Pumps take electricity. Electricity has been cut off. Therefore, no more water.
Point three. 60% of the Iraqi population has been living off UN food since Kuwait. Those supplies were cut off when Iraq mined the harbour to slow down the Americans.

You may continue to make idiots of yourselves. Pardon the interuption.

 

[flavio]

it's pretty clear that your game here has nothing to do with valid discourse...

What's pretty clear is that you consistently attack me instead of any point that I make. This just continues to prove that you have absolutely nothing useful to say.

If you do find that I have posted something that you disagree with then the reasonable thing to do is make some case for your point. Obviously you have none though.

- with that I believe I'm done responding to you until you come up with something resembling intelligent groupings of text to put into a post.

 

[madrin]

Heh..good deal. On your retreat don't forget to pick up the shreds of legitimacy you left along the way here...

MADrin

 

[ris]

it is given as a norm that people who are making debate or argument support their cases with links to external sources. i have never seen it described as a replacement for an own though except in instances where entire artcles are posted without comment.

there are many hundreds of articles posted here in connection with debate, from sources of polemic to statistics. utilised by both sides it is usually seen as a contributory factor, allowing sources and ideology to be explored.

polemic wihtout support on this forum normally lasts about as long under scrutiny as a well warmed chocolate teapot . personal insults are the response of the poor debater - if you don't like the opinion then disagree with it, not the person proffering it in a way that rejects the need to construct a coherent argument in return.

i must admit i am saddened to see the level of debate here reduced to 'did' 'didn't' [etc] and it is coming from both sides, no one is exepmt from my disappointment in how things are being conducted. this is playground debate, i challenge all here to conduct themselves with at least the minimum age limit allowed to register at the site.

 

[Gonz]

Some people are posting only pro-war spin as well. You can see that right?

Who could this some people be?

I keep reading arguments that this war is wrong & we don't belong there, etc. I am backing up my point with information. Some from the media, some from the UN, some from our government. If I'm wrong, present evidence, not opinion pieces. Show me evidence, not conjecture or 3x5 card slogans, that I'm wrong & I'm more than willing to listen.

Until I see evidence to the contrary I'm willing to believe OUR President & the PM of the UK and the facts presented to the UN long before I'm willing to believe a bunch of never worked for a living, never served their country, skulls full of impressionable mush college kids who can't tell me what the term baby-killer refers.

BTW, there was resolution of war against Iraq. There's a link here somewhere to it.

 

[flavio]

before I'm willing to believe a bunch of never worked for a living, never served their country, skulls full of impressionable mush college kids who can't tell me what the term baby-killer refers.

Where are these people you are talking about?

there was resolution of war against Iraq.

Are you implying a UN resolution?

 

[Gonz]

Are you implying a UN resolution?

No. The United States of American & it's Congress.