You wanted an exit strategy?

[chcr]

Why can't it work? These people haven't evolved enough to make freedom possible?

Holy shit Batman, we have people from every single possible tribe & continent living side by side without wars, famine & disease eating at their very souls. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere. If "the world" is pissed because we want to spread freedom & capitalism, well, fuck 'em. It works & it works for everybody.

You just don't get it, do you."You guys go ahead and have freedom, as long as it's freedom just like this." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems the opposite of freedom to me. I wouldn't accept it, why in the world does anyone expect them to?

Couple of centuries ago there was pretty much peace all over the world because one country had significantly more power than everyone else. Then a bunch of colonists decided that freedom to do what you're told isn't freedom and revolted. We can learn from history, we just don't.

 

[Gonz]

Elements of the "Fundamental Law":

— Bill of rights, to include freedom of speech, legislature, religion; statement of equal rights of all Iraqis, regardless of gender, sect, and ethnicity; and guarantees of due process.

— Federal arrangement for Iraq, to include governorates and the separation and specification of powers to be exercised by central and local entities.

— Statement of the independence of the judiciary, and a mechanism for judicial review.

— Statement of civilian political control over Iraqi armed and security forces.

— Statement that Fundamental Law cannot be amended.

— An expiration date for Fundamental Law.

— Timetable for drafting of Iraq's permanent constitution by a body directly elected by the Iraqi people; for ratifying the permanent constitution; and for holding elections under the new constitution.

Please, point out the flaws.

While you're at it, point out the countries that have guaranteed freedoms for the masses & limit government, besides the US. I'd be interested.

 

[chcr]

I'm tired, Gonz. You are telling them specifically how to run their country. That is not freedom by any sane definition of the word. I'm sorry that the concept is so hard for you to grasp. Goodnight.

 

[Gonz]

How could I be so blind. You're right. We ought to let them establish any government form they'd like. One problem, we never interfered in their previous governments & look at the atrocities.

 

[A.B.Normal]

What do you mean by "EXIT"

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Nov. 15 — The U.S.-led occupation will end by June after the selection of transitional government, the Iraqi Governing Council said Saturday. After that, the U.S. military status would change from an occupation force to a “military presence,” the council president said.

They are still going to be targets

With the return of sovereignty in June, the U.S. military occupation will formally end, although American forces are expected to remain in Iraq under a new arrangement to be worked out with the Iraqis.

They ain'tleaving any time soon.



http://www.msnbc.com/news/992125.asp?0dm=C12PN

 

[Puma]

Gonz, there's no flaws with the laws or the constitution; just flaws with the execution. If none of these fundamental laws are upheld there's nothing anyone can do about it besides a civil war which leads to a decade of slaughter and finally a dictator.

While you're at it, point out the countries that have guaranteed freedoms for the masses & limit government, besides the US. I'd be interested.

It doesn't matter which ones have guranteed freedoms, it matters which ones have those freedoms and which people are allowed to actually exercise their rights. So far, no one can anywhere except countries that don't seem to have an all powerful government. China and the Europian Union have sacraficed freedom to worship for the general cause of sepperating religion from government. Isreal descriminates against Arabs having high positions or even voting and getting jobs. Australia and Canada lack representation of the people in the government, they're still British colonies. And the U.S? I don't know where to start since I know the most about this country.

 

[A.B.Normal]

Australia and Canada lack representation of the people in the government, they're still British colonies.

Eh, no we're not,we are independant,the queen is/was just a figurehead with no powers.Prof ,help me out here ,what was it that was signed about 10yrs back the removed the queen as head of state?i.e. the Queen no longer had to sign laws to make them official.

 

[freako104]

Why can't it work? These people haven't evolved enough to make freedom possible?

Holy shit Batman, we have people from every single possible tribe & continent living side by side without wars, famine & disease eating at their very souls. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere. If "the world" is pissed because we want to spread freedom & capitalism, well, fuck 'em. It works & it works for everybody.

1.forced freedom isnt freedom.
2.how can by its nature freedom be limited?

 

[Puma]

Look freak, you're not helping at all. If you want to put it that way I may as well say freedom doesn't exist at all, that it's an illusion, because none of us can choose to live forever. Forced freedom is still freedom, defined as the ability to reasonably do more than before. In other words no one is completely free anyway, forcing 'freedom' onto people is just replacing some freedoms for some people with other freedoms for other people and calling it progress. In this case, Saddam is supposedly less free and the Iraqis are supposedly more free; even though both will die eventually and both didn't unanimously make the decision to have this change in 'freedom' forced upon them.

 

[freako104]

Look freak, you're not helping at all. If you want to put it that way I may as well say freedom doesn't exist at all, that it's an illusion, because none of us can choose to live forever. Forced freedom is still freedom, defined as the ability to reasonably do more than before. In other words no one is completely free anyway, forcing 'freedom' onto people is just replacing some freedoms for some people with other freedoms for other people and calling it progress. In this case, Saddam is supposedly less free and the Iraqis are supposedly more free; even though both will die eventually and both didn't unanimously make the decision to have this change in 'freedom' forced upon them.

forcing freedom isnt freedom as all its doing is forcing your beleifs on others. you have the freedom to do as i do or believe what i believe. how exactly is that freedom? i dont get that part. freedom is teh freedom to live your life as you want. and no none of us will live forever. where did that come from?

 

[chcr]

How could I be so blind. You're right. We ought to let them establish any government form they'd like. One problem, we never interfered in their previous governments & look at the atrocities.

Sorry about the name calling Gonz. I was tired. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I was thinking about this last night. Point one though, We ought to let them establish their own government? See, I don't think we have any right to do otherwise. The rest of the world will see it as Pax Americana, and it will alienate everyone. I know you don't think that's important, but I assure you it is.

Here's the real difference between you and me though, and it's why I say you're not paranoid enough. These "Fundamental Laws" include freedom of religion in a country in the middle of a region where there is one national religion, It is a crime punishable by death to try to convert someone from Islam. This particular law is problably supported by at least ninety percent of the citizens. They will see this, as do I, as a thinly veiled attempt to shove christianity down their throats. How long do you think it will take after these "Fundamental Laws" are in place for the first missionaries to show up (with "George the born again" cheering them on)? Do I need to explain to you that these people will be dragged out into back alleys and murdered? What happens then? They have freedom of religion in India (forced on them by the British) but when my wife was there (on a christian medical mission) one of the most important rules was not to discuss it or try to convert anyone. People are stoned for proselytizing there almost daily and it has been a couple of centuries.

You have too much faith in the government doing the right thing, I submit to you that they rarely have before, there is no evidence to support the conclusion that they will this time. Plenty of evidence (circumstantial or not) to the contrary in fact. You are not paranoid enough.

 

[freako104]

chcr I hate to say this but you make it sound kind of like Boykin was the way the Muslims see it. I dont know that they see it that way but that we are responsible for things in the past(like how NATO gave the Jews Israel). and I was wondering do you think our govt wants to do the right thing for the wrong reasons?

 

[Gonz]

Explain to my abviously feeble mind how one can force freedom on someone. Talk about a misnomer. Freedom is, it therefore can't be forced.

CHCR, name calling? I didn't notice.

The fundamental laws, including freedom of religion. are a baseline set forth to bring stability & civility. It's likely not to become a pandemic of joy & happiness with a properly spoon fed PC crowd overnight. I hope not. I hope they have fights & arguments & debates until they're blue in the face. I hope fistfigths break out. Hell, even a few well placed murders are in order. It's part of the democratic process. It took us over 100 years to get our footing. Hanging judges, night riders, sadistic prison wardens...these things are necessary to ensure the survival & life of democracy. Without them, there is no place to point & say "see, there, that is the limit". Then the limit moves, like a pendulum, back & forth over time & space, not everybody is pleased all the time.

These people have as much right to choose their destiny as the rest of us. They have the need for a stable & open government. If, after time, they chose to change that, so be it. Without choices though, it's just more of the same. They haven't had a choice in 25+ years. That's an entire generation under mind numbing control. Give them the opportunity to understand that they are in control of their own destiny. It won't be pretty & it won't be easy. But allow them their future. I'd ask no less.

 

[freako104]

ill concur to that gonz but what if they choose another dictator? would you be opposed to that? as far as forcing freedom its what were doing now. were doing it in the name of "freedom" to do as we want

 

[chcr]

chcr I hate to say this but you make it sound kind of like Boykin was the way the Muslims see it. I dont know that they see it that way but that we are responsible for things in the past(like how NATO gave the Jews Israel). and I was wondering do you think our govt wants to do the right thing for the wrong reasons?

I don't think they want to do the right thing at all, freako. I think they want to do that which serves their interests and don't care about right or wrong. The enmity is much older and more deeply rooted than the NATO-Israel thing or even the United States. We're just a convenient target. Christianity in general has oppressed non-christians for over a thousand years.

Again, Gonz, I think you're underestimating (or maybe it's overestimating) the christian right in America. They seriously believe it's their duty to god to "save" the muslims. I am frankly not sure (have never been sure) that Mr. Bush doesn't believe deep down that he has joined the final battle from Revelations. In any case, after a couple of dozen self-righteous christian zealots are stoned to death (deservedly, IMO) what do you think he will do? I fear what he will do. I'd rather be too paranoid (an oxymoron, IMO) and wrong than not paranoid enough and wrong.

These people have as much right to choose their destiny as the rest of us.

Sorry, but that statement simply supports my contention. We aren't letting them choose their own, we're telling them how to choose. Oh, your right about one thing, you can't force freedom on anyone, but evidently you can make them do what you want and call it setting them free.

 

[The Other One]

It's most of the rest of the world, including the left in our own country, that have pushed & coerced this pre-mature action. Had you all been on board it would have gone smoother & been finished correctly.

Sad, but very true.

 

[Gonz]

Why would it ever be alright to stone to death some religious fool for trying to add to their flocks? If that's true can we also stone the Kirby man? Tell them to fuck off & move on. It's really that simple. Your agreed with method is murder. It wasn't okay to burn heretics & it's not okay to kill missionaries. They both amount to the same thing.

"Telling them how to choose"... telling them...forcing...compelling by intellectual means. Ok, yep, we are. We are attempting to coerce a country of humans to trade thier own closed minded, pre-conceived notions (sound familiar?) for a peaceful attempt to coexist with those different than them. I suppose this is the place we seperate...I think those ideas can actually work & given the opportunity, they will. They just need the opportunity to try. Those in your court seem to preach these words & not believe in their integrity & value. How can they possibly be given a chance to work when they aren't given a chance?

 

[chcr]

Why would it ever be alright to stone to death some religious fool for trying to add to their flocks? If that's true can we also stone the Kirby man? Tell them to fuck off & move on. It's really that simple. Your agreed with method is murder. It wasn't okay to burn heretics & it's not okay to kill missionaries. They both amount to the same thing.

"Telling them how to choose"... telling them...forcing...compelling by intellectual means. Ok, yep, we are. We are attempting to coerce a country of humans to trade thier own closed minded, pre-conceived notions (sound familiar?) for a peaceful attempt to coexist with those different than them. I suppose this is the place we seperate...I think those ideas can actually work & given the opportunity, they will. They just need the opportunity to try. Those in your court seem to preach these words & not believe in their integrity & value. How can they possibly be given a chance to work when they aren't given a chance?

First off I never said it was alright, just that they would deserve it. Islamic fundamentalists aren't any brighter than christian fundamentalists. If you go into a muslim nation and start telling them that everything they've believed all there lives is wrong, then you get what you deserve. Murdering missionaries is exactly the same as murdering heretics (a lot of christians would disagree) but the christians are the heretics in this case and right or wrong won't stop it from happening.

You can go ahead and stone the Kirby man, I have a vacuum.

Again, I really think the second part of your post simply reinforces what I said. If you were on the receiving end of such a policy, I don't think you'd really like it very much. Anyime someone want to do something "for my own good" I put my hand over my wallet and back away carefully.

Finally, I guess there is simply no possibilty whatsoever that the administration has finally realized what a huge mistake they made, is there?

 

[Gonz]

Maybe this is more to your liking

Those who were hopeful the new Afghan government would be open, pluralistic and tolerant of other religions, extending rights to women and minority religions will be disappointed by the first draft of the constitution.

It is a blueprint for a repressive state, what the U.S. Commission for International Religious Freedom calls "Taliban-lite."

While international press reports have focused on the mechanics of the government, the structure of a bicameral legislature with no prime minister, it also states clearly and ominously that "no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam."

WND

 

[chcr]

Are they a sovereign nation?