ABU GHRAIB

Gonz

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
From New Yorker Magazine.

The photographs tell it all. In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates. Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid. There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling. Then, there is another cluster of hooded bodies, with a female soldier standing in front, taking photographs. Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded.

Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. “Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other—it’s all a form of torture,” Haykel said.
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Torture. Abuse. Dehumanizing. Do these words seem to strong? They bring to my mind something far more dark & sinister than is represented in most of this story. Granted, there is some criminal abuse, but by and large, given the presentation of this piece, those words seem inappropriate.

That's not saying the soldiers involved, shouldn't be punished. Including Pvt England.

New Yorker
 
In one fell swoop, I realize just how fucked up these people are.

The 30-year-old al-Shweiri, who used to work in a fabric shop, is a die-hard fighter in the al-Mahdi Army, the fanatic militia of a Shiite Muslim cleric who has vowed to take on the Americans.

Al-Shweiri said that while jailed by Saddam's regime, he was electrocuted, beaten and hung from the ceiling with his hands tied behind his back.

"But that's better than the humiliation of being stripped naked," he said. "Shoot me here," he added, pointing between his eyes, "but don't do this to us."
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AP Story
 
I believe he was referring to the "soldiers" accused of this. They've just effectibvely made us worse than Saddam to many Iraqis, and it doesn't get any more fucked up than that.

At least I hope that's what he was referring to.
 
I am referring to any group of people that thinks electrocution or death is preferable to being naked. The mentality that follows that line of thought is our enemy. Be it limited to one radical muslim or every single arab, whatever applies.

Racist? We're not allowed to judge based on evidence anymore? I refuse to follow that path.
 
Missed the point here, man. We have a group of criminals whose acts have done more damage to our attempts to win over the avergae Iraqi than anything Saddam's agents could have dreamed of.

Instead of focusing on that, you're taking pot shots at their cultural dofferences in what's appropriate. Way to go.
 
In the event that those cultural differences create a gulf as wide as this, it's a problem. A damned serious problem. It, in fact, lessens the chance that we'll ever see eye to eye on anything. A democrat Iraq is still probable. A meeting of the minds is less so.
 
Then, less than 24 hours later, hope rears it head.

Three young girls in eastern Afghanistan were in critical condition in hospital last night after being poisoned, apparently by militants as punishment for attending school.

The Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, said those responsible for the poisonings, in the province of Khost, were less than human. He said the attack had been carried out by terrorists and was the work of foreign elements.

"I will not call anyone an Afghan or a Muslim who poisons an eight-year-old child because she is schoolgoing," Karzai said. "They are beasts."
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Gonz, sometimes you really need to learn to just shut the fuck up. What these soldiers did was atrocious. And here you are trying to put the blame on them becuase their religon and their culture tells them that this is wrong. You're fucked up.
 
Gonz said:
In the event that those cultural differences create a gulf as wide as this, it's a problem. A damned serious problem. It, in fact, lessens the chance that we'll ever see eye to eye on anything. A democrat Iraq is still probable. A meeting of the minds is less so.
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Have you for one second imagined being imprisoned and treated this way? Not for commiting a crime, but for fighting for your country.
 
This issue isn't about not allowing females to go to school. It's not about chopping hands off for theft (never seen you critisoze that one, BTW). It's not really about the preference for death over dishonor, although that's a shitload closer.

It's about abuse of prisoners and its effect on the ongoing effort to convert that area to democracy. Big picture, remember?
 
PuterTutor said:
Gonz, sometimes you really need to learn to just shut the fuck up. What these soldiers did was atrocious. And here you are trying to put the blame on them becuase their religon and their culture tells them that this is wrong. You're fucked up.
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If I need to shut the fuck up you need to learn to read.

Look at post one. That is about the Americans.

Look at post 7 (I think). That is referring to the differences we're facing. Post 8 changes shows a lesser differnce.
 
I know what you're referring to. Correct me if I'm wrong.

They're different. They have different belief systems, therefore they must be evil and must be destroyed, so it's perfectly fine to dehumanize them.
 
I am referring to any group of people that thinks electrocution or death is preferable to being naked. The mentality that follows that line of thought is our enemy.
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Torture. Abuse. Dehumanizing. Do these words seem to strong? They bring to my mind something far more dark & sinister than is represented in most of this story. Granted, there is some criminal abuse
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Right there, you're minimizing it. All because they have different beliefs than you, apparently.
 
Gonz said:
Torture. Abuse. Dehumanizing. Do these words seem to strong? They bring to my mind something far more dark & sinister than is represented in most of this story. Granted, there is some criminal abuse, but by and large, given the presentation of this piece, those words seem inappropriate.
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Some huh?, then which words seem appropiate for you? a walk in the park? a sunny day?, fun?

Those soldiers have put the name of your country very low, and you're helping their cause further.
 
Gonz said:
I am referring to any group of people that thinks electrocution or death is preferable to being naked. The mentality that follows that line of thought is our enemy. Be it limited to one radical muslim or every single arab, whatever applies.

Racist? We're not allowed to judge based on evidence anymore? I refuse to follow that path.
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not saying they didnt do wrong gonz. and there is evidence Im sure that they have done some fucked up stuff. I dont doubt that a bit. But the way you worded I thought you meant every single person who is Muslim or in the Middle East.


and I thought the electrocution thing was preferred over the homosexual acts comitted
 
PuterTutor said:
Have you for one second imagined being imprisoned and treated this way? Not for commiting a crime, but for fighting for your country.
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al-Mahdi Army
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It takes approximately one tenth of one second to imagine the scenario portrayed here. If my choice is being hung by my arms, backwards, or left naked for days on end, there isn't much to think about.

This guy, and criminals like him, aren't fighting for thier country. They're fighting for radical ideals. They wish to move Iraq towards a theocracy. Bad idea.

The actions taken by a few (as it turns out) coalition troops to prisoners in Iraqi jails/prisons is not & should not be tolerated. If certain high value prisoners may have additional information, that is to be handled by military intelligence per the Geneva Convention and whatever methods have proven to work best.

As I pointed out several hours later with another article, the problem is much more unique than originally shown. Having a prisoner say electrocution is preferable to nudity is not only wildly outlandish, it shows a vastly larger gap between basic human sensibility. Whether it's one individual with this ideology or a sect, a nationality or a peoples, is where the problem arises. These are not cultural differences. They're religious preferences. Let's not confuse them.
 
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