ABU GHRAIB

[Professur]

So if Canada with it's Gay's OK morals invades, what state are you in again? Indiana? Ok, Canada invades Indiana. Acording to what you've put forth, there should be no trouble with them stripping you naked and imprisioning you with a bunch of gay men, wielding vaseline.

Or would you like to reconsider the electrocution?

 

[Gonz]

PT-Read the stories. The emotional rush from a headline is tempered by the facts. This is not widespread & systematic abuse.
--------------------------------------------------
Prof-my words are being changed into something I didn't write. If this guys story had suggested being raped, then that changes the context doesn't it. It does not sound that way.

 

[A.B.Normal]

It takes approximately one tenth of one second to imagine the scenario portrayed here. If my choice is being hung by my arms, backwards, or left naked for days on end, there isn't much to think about.

He didn't join Al-sadrs followers until after he left US custody ,

When al-Shweiri left American detention, he said his hatred for Saddam was replaced with one for America and two months ago he joined the al-Mahdi Army of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

 

[Gonz]

That seems to be the case. Follow it up with

"If Seyed Muqtada orders us to disband, we will. If he orders us to die, we will die. And if he tells us to live, we will live. We have nothing to do with the Americans and what they demand from us," al-Shweiri said.

and he looks like an even better source for this story. Especially in light of

Al-Shweiri, who was arrested by the Americans in October, said he was asked to take off his clothes only once and for about 15 minutes.

"I thought they wanted me to change into the red prison uniform, so I took off my clothes, down to my underwear. Then he asked me to take off my underwear. I started arguing with him but in the end he made me take off my underwear," said al-Shweiri, who was too embarrassed to go into too much detail.

He said he and six other prisoners -- all hooded -- had to face the wall and bend over a little as they put their hands on the wall.

"They made us stand in a way that I am ashamed to describe. They came to look at us as we stood there. They knew this would humiliate us," he said, adding that he was not sodomized.

The AP story has changed... New source

 

[Professur]

--------------------------------------------------
Prof-my words are being changed into something I didn't write. If this guys story had suggested being raped, then that changes the context doesn't it. It does not sound that way.

Did I say rape anywhere? Nope. Not once. But that was your first reaction, wasn't it? Well, what do you think those poor bastards were thinking when they were stripped. Hell, Gonz, there are even photos of them being posed to look like they're being gay raped. Posed by a bunch of women[/i] no less!!!!

 

[PT]

PT-Read the stories. The emotional rush from a headline is tempered by the facts. This is not widespread & systematic abuse.

I've read the stories. I wouldn't say anything is tempered by the facts, rather it just infuriates me more. How about this for perspective? Say those were our guys being posed like that by Iraqi Military, would you want their heads? Take it even further, would you blame those particular people that took the photos, or blame the entire Iraqi military, assuming the order to do so came from above?

 

[A.B.Normal]

Hell,there has been public outcry over hazing incidents "within" the US Military. If it were a foreign entity making US soldiers do such things ,you know there would be hell to pay.

 

[The Other One]

We evil westerners are expected to handle the Muslims with kid gloves yet Muslims can do anything they can think of in their attack on Americans. When CBS's promotion of Dick Clarke's book failed to elicit the returns that were expected, the network featured these pics (which date from Nov. or Dec. of '03--but isn't timing everything?) in a further attempt to undermine the U.S. war effort. Why didn't CBS display the pictures of the bodies of 4 charred and profaned Americans in Fallujah with such intensity? Are these 'abused' Iraqi prisoners still alive? Or were they killed, burned, drug down the street, and hung up from a bridge?

 

[Professur]

What's your point, T.O.O? That we should ba allowed to act like animals because they do? Or that the act is somehow less important because The publicity is part of CBS's obvious political manouvering?

 

[MrBishop]

One step forward and yet another 20 steps back.

If you're trying to liberate a people and make them think that you're their friend and someone who can be trusted and helped...the absolute worst thing that you can do is to make them think that you're not as 'good' as what they're being asked to leave behind.

These were outrageous acts...there's no denying it. "Cruel or unusual punishment" is what came to mind when I first read about this.

What's worst is that this wasn't done behind closed doors, or well hidden and the bodies disposed of...but was done almost out in the open for everyone to see. There were pictures and video f'r crissakes! Didn't those soldiers think that those might get out? What were they going to do with those pictures..send them to family and friends? Make a friggin' scrapbook!?!

Were these people that stupid to think that they were living in a void and that their actions would never get out?

Now...those pictures and video did get out...in a big way. The news media got a hold of it. It's crossing borders and changing opinions about both the UK and USA military. It's eroding trust...and if you don't trust the people that are invading you, even if they say that it's for your own good, you certainly aren't going to help them.

What's the average Iraqi going to think? Do you think that they're looking at American and British soldiers the same way now? Are they saviours or invading barbarians? What about the next country that gets saved for it's own good? Are thos civilians going to rise up and help the good ol' American troops? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Gonz]

I've read the stories. I wouldn't say anything is tempered by the facts, rather it just infuriates me more. How about this for perspective? Say those were our guys being posed like that by Iraqi Military, would you want their heads? Take it even further, would you blame those particular people that took the photos, or blame the entire Iraqi military, assuming the order to do so came from above?

If our guys were put in the mirror image predicament, I'd be pissed. I'd want heads to roll. If the Iraqi government said they were arresting & prosecuting those responsible, and they had a history of proper judicial procedures, that would be enough.

You want perspective? Look up Joseph Mengele.

 

[freako104]

You want perspective? Look up Joseph Mengele.

arent you the one who says not to use the past? thats from WWII. Though what Mengele did was disgusting to me how is it pertaining to today other than some tortures aforementioned. unless they are doing what he did with animal semen and women.

 

[Gonz]

Aren't I the one who continually brings up historical references in context with current events in hopes of bumping memory cells?

 

[rrfield]

This is it, im done in the Real World. I know I don't post that often, but I'm done for good now. I'm not going to frequent a board that is dominated by an obvious racist.

 

[Gonz]

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

7.(U) These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. In reaching my findings, I have carefully considered the pre-existing statements of the following witnesses and suspects (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) SPC Jeremy Sivits, 372nd MP Company - suspect

b. (U) SPC Sabrina Harman, 372nd MP Company – Suspect

c. (U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

c. (U) PFC Lynndie R. England, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

d. (U) Adel Nakhla, Civilian Translator, Titan Corp., Assigned to the 205th MI Brigade- Suspect

(Names deleted)

U.S. Army report on Iraqi prisoner abuse MSNBC

 

[paul_valaru]

If our guys were put in the mirror image predicament, I'd be pissed. I'd want heads to roll. If the Iraqi government said they were arresting & prosecuting those responsible, and they had a history of proper judicial procedures, that would be enough.

history of scapegoats, and excuses, and forgetting it ever happened

Lt. Calley, March 16th 1968 Led is platton into the town now known as My Lai (it''s real name is Chu Lai) and pretty much led the slaughter of 250-400 people, men women and children.

for this we was charged with the murder of 22 people..just 22.

and he spent 3 years house arrest HOUSE arrest, if he went out he had to have 2 guards, no prison, no nothing

we was paroled on Sept. 9 1974.

The american Amry covers it's own ass, and these people are going to get a slap on the wrist, but if the roles were reversed, the United states would make it the biggest issue possible.

 

[RDX]

Very true. I'm not very confident in the military court system in the states. There are a lot of cover ups that we never hear about.

As a whole, I still think that the US military is as fair and humane as possible for a professional military. On the other hand, with a lack of checks and balances and the lack of a really impartial military court system, it's quite possible for some "bad apples" to stay in the military indefinetly without facing prosecution.

 

[MrBishop]

Very true. I'm not very confident in the military court system in the states. There are a lot of cover ups that we never hear about.

As a whole, I still think that the US military is as fair and humane as possible for a professional military. On the other hand, with a lack of checks and balances and the lack of a really impartial military court system, it's quite possible for some "bad apples" to stay in the military indefinetly without facing prosecution.

I tend to agree...shit may roll downhill, but sahitstorms like this one fly uphill and spatter everyone involved. If the higher ups could've kept this one quiet, they would've...in this case, it was too little-too late.

Now. In regards to the punishment of these people... if the higher ups couldn't stop it before it hit the news, then they're definatly going to make the punishment BIG and VISIBLE...so that the press will back off and not dig any deeper. s'my prediction.

 

[paul_valaru]

I tend to agree...shit may roll downhill, but sahitstorms like this one fly uphill and spatter everyone involved. If the higher ups could've kept this one quiet, they would've...in this case, it was too little-too late.

Now. In regards to the punishment of these people... if the higher ups couldn't stop it before it hit the news, then they're definatly going to make the punishment BIG and VISIBLE...so that the press will back off and not dig any deeper. s'my prediction.

I see big and visible, until the fervor dies down, then I see early parole, book deals, and 15 minutes on Oprah

 

[MrBishop]

This is it, im done in the Real World. I know I don't post that often, but I'm done for good now. I'm not going to frequent a board that is dominated by an obvious racist.

I think that I'm not the only one here in saying WTF? Now...I'm not Gonz's biggest fan ... but I don't see any specific examples of racism being played out here. If you can explain youself..that'd help.

As for dominating a board... Gonz may be a big poster, specifically in RW, but I woudln't say that he dominates the board. You're free to block him with one click of a mouse, or debate him ... unlike some current or former members with strong beliefs, he doesn't tend to attack people personally, nor fall back to swearing etc... for that alone, I'm willing to read his posts, reply to them, and consider his replies.

If you're dead-set against being on OTC... I can't stop you from leaving, but I'd rather that you stick around, join the debate and make your opinions heard. Silence never solved any arguement.