All about abortion in a world without God.
- Thread starter HeXp£Øi±
- Start date
chcr
Too cute for words
HeXp£Øi± said:
Sorry, Hex, but this is exactly the point I have trouble with. There are circumstances under which it will never be a human life. It will be stillborn or a vegetable or whatever, under which circumstances an abortion might very well be the safest if not the only viable course. Someone who uses abortion as a form of birth control should be sterilized. However, you cannot simply outlaw abortion out of hand. There are circumstances under which it is necessary. At that point, it is the parents (with advice from whoever they choose to seek advice from) who must decide, the government should have nothing to do with it. That was the real meat of Roe v. Wade, regardless of what people try to make it mean.
unclehobart
New Member
Theres all manner of 'life' if let be.
Perhaps its all part of Gods plan to have abortions... and to have his followers fight abortions and yet still to have abortions. Its all layers upon layers upon hypothesis upon conspiracies upon etc....
Perhaps its all part of Gods plan to have abortions... and to have his followers fight abortions and yet still to have abortions. Its all layers upon layers upon hypothesis upon conspiracies upon etc....
HeXp£Øi±
Well-Known Member
chcr said:
This is yet another example of someone using the exception to break the entire rule. Yes this is an exception and a small percentage. Again 95%+ of abortions in America cannot claim this exeption. As i said before there are always exceptions and we are logical enough to account for them. One bad apple is not an excuse to cut down an entire apple tree.
HeXp£Øi±
Well-Known Member
unclehobart said:
The first line is very nice. I agree. As for the second, I believe that god created us this way for a reason and he wanted us too learn something from it. Only good things can come from learning to raise a child.
Again though one thing has little to do with the other.
HeXp£Øi±
Well-Known Member
Agreed it is sad. If i could change one thing about abortion in America it wouldn't be the law, it would be to have something in place that gets people(both men and women) thinking about just what they're doing. The violent debate over abortions in America has caused these abortion clinics to spawn and fill with left wing extremists that care very little about the family and rush people through these procedures. It's sickening. If you rushed in to have a perfectly good limb amputated you'd be forced through a series of filters to make sure that you were of sound mind yet anyone can get an abortion in thousands of walk-in abortion clinics around America quickly and with very little trouble. I know people that have had multiple abortions and the fact is that if young people are told it's no big deal quite often they'll believe it. Wait until the years go on and they begin questioning themselves. This procedure can scar someone for life. You should have to consider it and if it's truly not important then you're no worse for wear with a little education as is expected with any other medical procedure.chcr said:
tank girl
New Member
the first point I'd like to make is that from what I can see, most of the posts on this thread are from a male perspective and therefore imo can't really ever hold any more than a arbitrary (religious or otherwise) position on the subject that holds no real perspective or authority on the morality of the issue - due to the obvious fact you will never have to be in the position where you are faced with havin to make such a life-altering decision.
Abortion is a Woman's choice, and a woman's responsibility for the welfare of herself and the child. A woman should have full control over her body. If she is convinced that she wants to end her pregnancy, after discussing her options and their consequences she should be allowed to have a safe abortion.
#2 The ethical argument for or against abortion is far more complex and far less "binary opposed" than what the media feed us -ie: the extreme "left-wing" pro-choice slant vs. the extreme religious "zero tolerance" slant .
The simple answer to this is that the two extremes make for good soap opera material, the "good vs evil" or "right versus wrong: debate never fails to capture attention or arouse personal opinion and therefore is the ultimate media material: I think its far too easy to be mislead into thinking this is something that can be easily argued "for or against" because the issue is just not so simple as that.
In fact there are quite a few various positions both on each end as well as along the spectrum that can be taken and argued about without getting to the main point. To me, too many people think they can understand the issue and thereby justify their claims because it has been presented to many in such a simplified way.
#3 The overwhelming basis for a pro-life stance is fueled by religious belief and so by saying that you are exluding religious precepts is simply ridiculous because it will allways be an underlying validation for your position whether you openly defend it through it or not, though I do think it is admirable to attempt to distance yourself away from the often-thrashed factor of this sort of debate
#4 A debate such as this will never be resolved easily as religious or other convictions prevail over more realistic approaches to the matter, and so imo it is rather more realistic to "agree to disagree" and instead make a comprimise by ensuring that all options are avaliable and discussed openly with the mother in the position of deciding whether or not to terminate her pregnancy, rather than actively encouraging or discouraging one point over another for the sake of personal belief.
#5
To me your arguments are too broad and simplistic and therefore quite weak. But it is a good effort nevertheless.
Abortion is a Woman's choice, and a woman's responsibility for the welfare of herself and the child. A woman should have full control over her body. If she is convinced that she wants to end her pregnancy, after discussing her options and their consequences she should be allowed to have a safe abortion.
#2 The ethical argument for or against abortion is far more complex and far less "binary opposed" than what the media feed us -ie: the extreme "left-wing" pro-choice slant vs. the extreme religious "zero tolerance" slant .
The simple answer to this is that the two extremes make for good soap opera material, the "good vs evil" or "right versus wrong: debate never fails to capture attention or arouse personal opinion and therefore is the ultimate media material: I think its far too easy to be mislead into thinking this is something that can be easily argued "for or against" because the issue is just not so simple as that.
In fact there are quite a few various positions both on each end as well as along the spectrum that can be taken and argued about without getting to the main point. To me, too many people think they can understand the issue and thereby justify their claims because it has been presented to many in such a simplified way.
#3 The overwhelming basis for a pro-life stance is fueled by religious belief and so by saying that you are exluding religious precepts is simply ridiculous because it will allways be an underlying validation for your position whether you openly defend it through it or not, though I do think it is admirable to attempt to distance yourself away from the often-thrashed factor of this sort of debate
#4 A debate such as this will never be resolved easily as religious or other convictions prevail over more realistic approaches to the matter, and so imo it is rather more realistic to "agree to disagree" and instead make a comprimise by ensuring that all options are avaliable and discussed openly with the mother in the position of deciding whether or not to terminate her pregnancy, rather than actively encouraging or discouraging one point over another for the sake of personal belief.
#5
To me your arguments are too broad and simplistic and therefore quite weak. But it is a good effort nevertheless.
HeXp£Øi±
Well-Known Member
tank girl said:
Sorry but you are simply incorrent. Not one of my points has anything whatsoever to do with god. They do however have everything in the world to do with the simple fact that i think humans, even in the most early stages of growth, have value. I think you said an awful lot without saying anything at all aside from the fact that a woman should have control over her body. Obviously everyone should have control over their bodies. It saddens me that we are so radical that we can't find a healthy medium in these things. It saddens me that this year Americans will terminate 1.5 million fetus'. I am sorry but it's sick and it has very little to do with anything more than selfishness on the part of both men and women in America. The point is not control over a womans body. The point is that we are slaughtering the most valuable portion of our society for no other reason than we are selfish.
Um, bullshit.tank girl said:
Now, if you want to say that there is no way a man should be allowed to force a woman to have an abortion, that's fine. I'll agree there. However, to say that that life living inside you belongs solely to you and is at your sole discretion to take or give it life, that's wrong. There are other options to having an abortion that have to be considered before you just do it. Now certainly I'm speaking of a consensual relationship, where the child wasn't exactly planned but it wasn't prevented either. Why shouldn't the man be able to raise that child?
Now, the other parts of the thread.
Abortion would be the least of our problems in a world without religon. I have to agree with Unc here that we wouldn't be nearly as advanced as we are today if we had not had religon. Not just becuase the reading and writing, which would have been significant, but because of the morals. I have always thought that the purpose of religon is to teach the people morals, give them guidelines to live by. What better way to get your tribe to tow the line than to get them to believe that they will be smited by the gods if they misbehave? Then we went even further and promised them eternal salvation if they follow the rules or eternal damnation if we break them. What control!!
Now, I also have to agree that the whole premise is moot. Not because I believe in god but because I think there is no way that we would have developed without religon. Not that we wouldn't have been here but I also think religon was a way to explain the things we didn't understand. Think back a few hundred years, let alone thousands. How do you think weather was explained? We didn't have devices that could detect the weather until the early 1900's, accurate predicting came long after that. There are still people out there that pray for the weather that will benefit them. Up until a few hundred years ago (probably less, just guessing) the spring equinox was a fertility festival meant to please the gods and give them a good crop. I just think that the evolution of religon was a natural way to explain the unexplainable at the time. I also fear that in the not too distant future it will go away, as we are able to explain more and more each day through the use of science.
Winky
Well-Known Member
All of the four points aside.
You will notice that I was the first to post in this thread. I posted a link to a site in haste and then realized that even I a normally very obnoxious guy couldn't have such an abomination associated with myself even with the anonymity afforded by an internet screen name.
As TG just incorrectly pointed out in the first part of her post a Dude ain't ever gonna have an abortion
so he hasn't squat to say about what happens to the offspring that is being carried in the females womb. I guess that makes it her sole possession and therefore her responsibility? Yep ain’t women’s’ lib great? anyway...
I always agreed with her next point wherein a woman should have the right to murder (Ok terminate) her unborn (fetus um whatever ya wanna call it) and that the greater crime would be for the government to interfere.
But back to the link. It was a site describing the various surgical procedures used to perform abortions RU486, Suction, D&C D&E and my personal fav Partial-Birth.
I was actually traumatized! Jeebus I'm a middle-aged Guy and I've seen some nasty stuff in my time, but to think anyone would wilingly undergo such things. The descriptions beginning with the least ridiculous methods going all the way up to the most invasive just curled my toes.
Throw out (get it heh heh) the issue of the fetus and consider the damage to the woman’s reproductive tract! OMG!
And on the sites I researched nearly everyone mentioned something I've already learned in my own life. Every woman that has an abortion suffers some degree of mental anguish. This act is so against nature so against the Cosmic order of the Universe so ANTI-Woman that NO woman can endure it unaffected.
Damn reading about the methods I think it would be much simpler to carry it to term and give it away lol
just kidding no normal woman could feel nothing towards her newborn child. (no need to site the insane women I typed normal in italics up there).
M'Kay Winky's sage advice on the matter.
either don't have an 'unplanned pregnancy" for christsakes either abstain of use proper birth control methods or... um like if you get knocked up raise YOUR child!
You will notice that I was the first to post in this thread. I posted a link to a site in haste and then realized that even I a normally very obnoxious guy couldn't have such an abomination associated with myself even with the anonymity afforded by an internet screen name.
As TG just incorrectly pointed out in the first part of her post a Dude ain't ever gonna have an abortion
so he hasn't squat to say about what happens to the offspring that is being carried in the females womb. I guess that makes it her sole possession and therefore her responsibility? Yep ain’t women’s’ lib great? anyway...
I always agreed with her next point wherein a woman should have the right to murder (Ok terminate) her unborn (fetus um whatever ya wanna call it) and that the greater crime would be for the government to interfere.
But back to the link. It was a site describing the various surgical procedures used to perform abortions RU486, Suction, D&C D&E and my personal fav Partial-Birth.
I was actually traumatized! Jeebus I'm a middle-aged Guy and I've seen some nasty stuff in my time, but to think anyone would wilingly undergo such things. The descriptions beginning with the least ridiculous methods going all the way up to the most invasive just curled my toes.
Throw out (get it heh heh) the issue of the fetus and consider the damage to the woman’s reproductive tract! OMG!
And on the sites I researched nearly everyone mentioned something I've already learned in my own life. Every woman that has an abortion suffers some degree of mental anguish. This act is so against nature so against the Cosmic order of the Universe so ANTI-Woman that NO woman can endure it unaffected.
Damn reading about the methods I think it would be much simpler to carry it to term and give it away lol
just kidding no normal woman could feel nothing towards her newborn child. (no need to site the insane women I typed normal in italics up there).
M'Kay Winky's sage advice on the matter.
either don't have an 'unplanned pregnancy" for christsakes either abstain of use proper birth control methods or... um like if you get knocked up raise YOUR child!
unclehobart
New Member
That almost sounds like China. Isn't it nifty that 'big brother' can force you to have an abortion.
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
I greatly doubt it. Women have been prompting abortions for hundreds of years, either through chemical means (through herbal abortions), poisons, or through physical means... remember the coathanger? Women dying in childbirth, women drowning their babies or tossing them in the trash, leaving them out in the cold etc. ad nauseum.Gonz said:
Today...it's safer for the woman because of medical advances, but take that away...and there are still plenty of hangers in the closet and still plenty of spaces in the graveyard for women who'll try, and fail, to abort on their own.
I'm anti-abortion and pro-choice. These are not polar opposites. I don't quite get why people see them this way.
*I'm going to try and start a 'world without religion' thread...It's a very interesting topic and muddling it up with an abortion thread will only make it lose out in the end **