Don't ask, don't tell...

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2minkey said:
yeah god forbid somebody breaks a stupid rule.
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I expected something like this. It fits that someone who has no experience following the rules the military has would decide that a rule is stupid. How about another rule you may find stupid...AWOL. Or maybe even calling your superior an idiot. Once again...if you don't like the rules, don't join, or petition Congress to change the rules so that you can join. Everything else is just a lot of hot air spouted off by the clueless.
 
of course you did, big boy.

umm, more tender vittles.

and now the opinion rendered is less valid due to lack of direct and personal military experience. oh noes.

pretty lame angle, dude.
 
2minkey said:
of course you did, big boy.

umm, more tender vittles.

and now the opinion rendered is less valid due to lack of direct and personal military experience. oh noes.

pretty lame angle, dude.
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Sorry...but you still don't know. We live, and die, by following the lawful orders of those appointed above us, and by following the rules set forth by our legislature. We have to, or we are no loger a cohesive unit. Just a mob with heavy firepower. That is why your opinion is less valid. Because you, personally, have no experience in the matter. We have a very strict code we follow. That is something you will never understand because every time its pointed out, you become scarcastic and belittling.

Example number one...

Insubordination: SGT Snuffy doesn't like his section leader, 1LT Grissom. His group is ordered to clean the parade grounds, and SGT Snuffy doesn't like it, so he tells 1LT Grissom that he is an idiot. SGT Snuffy is then charged with insubordination and punished under the UCMJ, losing his rank, 2/3 pay for 6 months, and a bad conduct discharge...meaning he now has a felony record.

You don't like your supervisor. He sends you off to the mall to gather the surveys your folks have collected. You call him an idiot. What are the possible criminal actions you will receive?

Example number two...

You are a service member deployed to Iraq in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom like this guy...

BAGHDAD – At a court-martial conducted this week, a Command Sgt. Major was convicted of offenses in violation of the military’s Uniformed Code of Military Justice and sentenced.

At a trial by general court-martial on 28-29 June 2007, Army Command Sgt. Maj. XXXXXXX XXXXXXX, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 411th Engineer Brigade, Logistical Support Area Anaconda, Iraq, was convicted of violating General Order #1 by possessing alcohol and pornography, violation of Army Command Policy by engaging in an inappropriate relationship with a female soldier in his unit, and by maltreating a Soldier subject to his orders. These offenses occurred around October 14th 2006.


Get the picture now? No. You probably don't because you refuse to see anything beyond what you wish...
 
Gato_Solo said:
Get the picture now? No. You probably don't because you refuse to see anything beyond what you wish...
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yeah we're all just close-minded, "just don't get it," or some other variation on that kinda dimissive crap when we say things you don't find fully consonant.

well, if you'll excuse me, i'm going to go PETITION CONGRESS so i can be more than a hot air wind bag here. i will be a steely action hero too!
 
2minkey said:
yeah we're all just close-minded, "just don't get it," or some other variation on that kinda dimissive crap when we say things you don't find fully consonant.
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Never said that you were close-minded. Just that you don't get it...BTW...now who's being dismissive?

minkey said:
well, if you'll excuse me, i'm going to go PETITION CONGRESS so i can be more than a hot air wind bag here. i will be a steely action hero too!
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At least you're doing something besides waving a sign and looking angry. :rolleyes:
 
if "refuse to see anything you do not wish" does not at least roughly equate to "close-minded" then...

okay i give up.
 
2minkey said:
if "refuse to see anything you do not wish" does not at least roughly equate to "close-minded" then...
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Here's a bit more for you...same case as above...Remember your own words about 'stupid rules'.

XXXXXXXX engaged in intimate relationships with two junior non-commissioned officers in his unit. XXXXXXXX also possessed a large quantity of alcohol and pornography in his quarters at LSA Anaconda. When discovered, XXXXXXXX attempted to hide evidence of his misconduct and later ran from CID agents while they were processing him.

Anything in there that could get you, personally, in jail?
 
Maybe they could have had Don't Ask Don't Tell for black troops a long time ago. Then they wouldn't have had to segregate them.

"Look if you don't ever actually admit to being black we'll let you serve with the rest of the troops".
 
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Gato_Solo said:
Here's a bit more for you...same case as above...Remember your own words about 'stupid rules'.

XXXXXXXX engaged in intimate relationships with two junior non-commissioned officers in his unit. XXXXXXXX also possessed a large quantity of alcohol and pornography in his quarters at LSA Anaconda. When discovered, XXXXXXXX attempted to hide evidence of his misconduct and later ran from CID agents while they were processing him.

Anything in there that could get you, personally, in jail?
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no, i'm not in the military as you've gloriously pointed out.

... and i would not understand the subtle distinctions and "insider-only" motivations such as avoiding bedlam in the barracks. or for extending an already pointless discussion. i still got that land in florida. maybe you could help it understand.
 
2minkey said:
no, i'm not in the military as you've gloriously pointed out.

... and i would not understand the subtle distinctions and "insider-only" motivations such as avoiding bedlam in the barracks. or for extending an already pointless discussion. i still got that land in florida. maybe you could help it understand.
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Avoiding bedlam in the barracks, while a good indicator, is not the primary motivation. Remember...you called the rule 'stupid', not me.

Last bit from the case I was citing...

The court martial was tried at LSA Anaconda, with a military judge convicting and sentencing XXXXXXXX to be reduced to Specialist (E-4) and to be confined for four months.

The case file didn't mention any loss of pay or benefits, but a loss of 5 stripes had to hurt, not to mention the jail time.

Anyway...to finish this off...our rules are there for good order and discipline. Outsiders may think that they are stupid, but we follow them, or we are no better than the 'mob' I mentioned earlier. Unit cohesion is paramount, and thesse 'stupid' rules promote just that. I've tried to explain this on more than one occasion, but it never really sinks in. If you don't like the rules, then don't join. Nobody is forced into the services anymore.
 
right, and gays will break all the little rules because of who they are. give 'em an inch...

wait, is there a difference between rules that target behaviors and rules that assume behaviors on the part of certain peoples cuz ya know their kind do that kinda shit?

oh, right, move to back of the bus please.
 
How does knowing someone is gay (as opposed to merely suspecting that they are gay) affect unit cohesion?

The rules re: sexual conduct amongst soldiers and higher/lower ranked personnel still applies, as does rules about sexual harassment, assault etc etc...
 
2minkey said:
right, and gays will break all the little rules because of who they are. give 'em an inch...
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Never said that. What I said was that there are rules that we follow. Break those rules and suffer the consequences. If you do not like the rules, then don't join. One of the rules is "Don't ask, don't tell". This has nothing to do with anything else. What i provided were examples that you could relate to with breaking the rules that are not enforcable in the 'civilian world'.

minkey said:
wait, is there a difference between rules that target behaviors and rules that assume behaviors on the part of certain peoples cuz ya know their kind do that kinda shit?

oh, right, move to back of the bus please.
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Nice try, but way off the mark. The rules don't assume behaviors. They target behaviors. You may do certain things, and you may not do certain others. If you cannot comprehend the difference, then you need to reassess your motives. Also...the consequences for breaking the rules in the 'civilian world' can be a lot less draconian than for breaking the rules in the 'military world'.

Another example of breaking the rules with no civilian counterpart...

Adultery. Can also be evidence in offenses "Prejudicial to good order and discipline".

Sodomy...which is what gets homosexuals and more than a few heterosexuals tossed...

Desertion...how many civilians go to jail for leaving their job for more than 30 days without permission

AWOL...leaving your job for less than 30 days without permission

Fraternization...Buddy-buddy with the boss, but, more often, means sexual relations

I could go on, but all of these rules can get you jailed and a felony rap. None of the above apply to the civilian world, but all have been known to cause problems within the ranks. If you don't like the rules, then you have three options...don't join, get out, or petition the legislature for change.
 
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