First Muslim Congressman

[chcr]

On topic:

"The point is that for what actually happens on the floor of the House, with 435 people, you won't see a Bible, you won't see a Torah, you won't see a Quran," said Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore.

It's during a private ceremony later, when new members of Congress stand with the speaker and re-enact their swearing-in, that religious texts sometimes appear. And that's when Ellison will pick up the Quran -- and other new members will bring in their family Bibles or new ones bought just for the occasion.

"That's when you will see a hand on a religious text," said Fred Beuttler, deputy historian of the House of Representatives. "But that's an informal ceremony for the members or the members' own purposes. It's not the official swearing-in ceremony of the House, when no religious text is used."

http://worldpoliticsnews.com/nation...ongress-Wants-Quran-for-Swearing-in-Ceremony/

So much for that. Right?

You're kidding, right? This is the United States of the Offended. We haven't even begun to hear all the pissing and moaning that this is going to engender.

 

[Gotholic]

What's your take on innocent ignorance then?

In order not to go to hell as a non-Catholic you have to be ignorant of the Catholic teachings?

Innocent ignorance is explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

How are we to understand this affirmation ["Outside the Church, no salvation"], often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is his body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
(CCC 846).

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation (CCC 847).

Just in case you are still a little confused here is an explanation of the above:

If someone were to understand that he should investigate the Catholic Church's claims or if he knew that those claims were true, and refused to either investigate or enter the Church, then culpability for his decision to reject the Church would begin to be an issue.

In other words, the Church believes that God does not punish anyone for being innocently unaware of the fullness of religious truth to be found in the Catholic Church. We are held accountable for our positive refusal to respond to God's grace, not for innocent ignorance.

Doesn't seem to prove your point, Gotholic

"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

Many of the quotes mentioned being brought back to the Church, or baptism etc... What of those who don't know about Christianity or don't believe it but live a wholesome life?

It supports it still. You missed the words heretic and schism.

A baby being baptized out of the Church has no control. An adult has control. But an adult may not know the difference of baptism from a Catholic one to a non-Catholic one, which could be the result of innocent ignorance.

 

[MrBishop]

So...a non-baptised person who knows that the church exists, but couldn't be bothered going...as long as s/he doesn't attack the church is fine.

 

[MrBishop]

You're kidding, right? This is the United States of the Offended. We haven't even begun to hear all the pissing and moaning that this is going to engender.

I tried.

 

[BB]

you probably tried too hard Bish ... that's whats ticking him off!

me an Inky are still waiting in another thread for chcr to look suprised!

 

[Gotholic]

So...a non-baptised person who knows that the church exists, but couldn't be bothered going...as long as s/he doesn't attack the church is fine.

No, baptism is very important and is needed. There are factors that are important behind not getting baptized, e.g., did the person choose not to get baptized or did the person truly not know (innocent ignorance) baptism was needed?

It is possible to get baptized without actually physically being baptized through the baptism of desire.

 

[spike]

Innocent ignorance is explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Just in case you are still a little confused here is an explanation of the above:

That's all pretty confusing and seems to contradict the words of the Pope who is supposed to be infallible-> "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." [Pope Boniface VIII, A.D. 1294-1303

Can we use some theoretical examples? Who's going to hell here?

1. A Buddhist who has researched other religions (including catholism) and remains a Buddhist.

2. A woman who was raised Catholic but converts to the Jewish faith when she marries her Jewish husband.

3. A man who who has never gone to any church or been religious at all, is fully aware of Catholic teachings but thinks they are silly. However he is a conscientious, fair, and good person.

4. A baptized catholic man who robs from the poor daily but attends church and confesses his sins on a regular weekly basis.

5. A good catholic who generally obeys all catholic beliefs but somehow never got baptized and doesn't want to.

 

[freako104]

Still not seeing the big deal, I wonder if people would bitch about it if someone opted to not even swear on any holy book.

 

[BB]

I TAKE IT YOU ARE NOT ASKIN ME?

OR:

bloody capslock:

i take it you are not asking me? (o0nly 2edits! )

 

[freako104]

I TAKE IT YOU ARE NOT ASKIN ME?

OR:

bloody capslock:

i take it you are not asking me? (o0nly 2edits! )

What is up with that caps lock?

 

[chcr]

Still not seeing the big deal, I wonder if people would bitch about it if someone opted to not even swear on any holy book.

Hey freako, how ya been? According to Bish's link, they don't in the official ceremony. Seems to make all the whining about it even more pointless than usual to me.

 

[freako104]

Hey freako, how ya been? According to Bish's link, they don't in the official ceremony. Seems to make all the whining about it even more pointless than usual to me.

Busy as all hell but semester is ending, so I get a small break from things (though still stressed what with the semester ending and I may be failing a class)



EDIT: Saw his post but didn't click linkage. It seems as though, as always, you are right, it isn't in the official ceremony. I guess I still can't see the harm either way.

 

[chcr]

Busy as all hell but semester is ending, so I get a small break from things (though still stressed what with the semester ending and I may be failing a class)



EDIT: Saw his post but didn't click linkage. It seems as though, as always, you are right, it isn't in the official ceremony. I guess I still can't see the harm either way.

I can find a dozen people on this board who'll disagree with that assessment without blinking.

Re the harm either way, earlier in the thread I suggested that not letting him swear on the quran (koran or whatever) is tantamount to saying that freedom of religion is a lie. Of course, a lot of folks already think that.

 

[freako104]

I can find a dozen people on this board who'll disagree with that assessment without blinking.

Re the harm either way, earlier in the thread I suggested that not letting him swear on the quran (koran or whatever) is tantamount to saying that freedom of religion is a lie. Of course, a lot of folks already think that.

Myself being among them, I would say that with the bitching and rereading the thread, your point is well made. And it made me say what I did about not even swearing on a holy text would be worse somehow.

 

[Gotholic]

That's all pretty confusing and seems to contradict the words of the Pope who is supposed to be infallible-> "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." [Pope Boniface VIII, A.D. 1294-1303

Not everything the pope says is infallible. It is only when the pope speaks ex cathedra that he is infallible. In regards to your quote of Pope Boniface, there is nothing contradictory here. People ought to believe in Christ and be a member of His Church. It does not guarantee their damnation if people do not believe in Christ or are not a member of his established Church. But it can count against them during God's judgment, i.e., it may lead them to their own damnation.

Can we use some theoretical examples? Who's going to hell here?

1. A Buddhist who has researched other religions (including catholism) and remains a Buddhist.

2. A woman who was raised Catholic but converts to the Jewish faith when she marries her Jewish husband.

3. A man who who has never gone to any church or been religious at all, is fully aware of Catholic teachings but thinks they are silly. However he is a conscientious, fair, and good person.

4. A baptized catholic man who robs from the poor daily but attends church and confesses his sins on a regular weekly basis.

5. A good catholic who generally obeys all catholic beliefs but somehow never got baptized and doesn't want to.

There are too many unknown variables. But despite that...

Their judgment is for God to decide.

 

[spike]

There are too many unknown variables. But despite that...

Their judgment is for God to decide.

I appreciate you making an attempt to clarify, but I see little to indicate that the Catholic stance is much different than I learned in sunday school. Which is that anyone who is not catholic is going to hell.

I get the idea that maybe there are some very special cases (such as ignorance) where this can be circumvented but it remains true for the most part.

My examples were an attempt to get some extra clarity but if you choose not to comment on them so be it. If there are variables that you need to answer theoretically then let me know. Otherwise maybe you just don't want to be put on the spot about this which is understandable.

 

[Gotholic]

I appreciate you making an attempt to clarify, but I see little to indicate that the Catholic stance is much different than I learned in sunday school. Which is that anyone who is not catholic is going to hell.

I get the idea that maybe there are some very special cases (such as ignorance) where this can be circumvented but it remains true for the most part.

If you were truly taught that only Catholics will be in heaven then you were misinformed. Heaven is not Catholic exclusive.

Everyone's salvation comes from Christ through His Church despite if they realize it or not.

For Protestants, the Catholic Church entrusts them to God's mercy as long as they follow Him to the best of their ability with the truth and light that they have. It is still possible for them to achieve salvation.

The following article might help you understand the Catholic position:

Salvation for Non-Christians Explained Sola Scriptura

My examples were an attempt to get some extra clarity but if you choose not to comment on them so be it. If there are variables that you need to answer theoretically then let me know. Otherwise maybe you just don't want to be put on the spot about this which is understandable.

The depths of God's wisdom and mercy cannot be measured. Our feeble minds cannot fully comprehend how God works.

All those people you mentioned in your examples are in danger of going to hell. But through God's mercy they may be saved. Keep in mind that sometimes an atheist gazing at the starlit sky is closer to God than a Christian is attending Sunday Mass.

 

[spike]

If you were truly taught that only Catholics will be in heaven then you were misinformed. Heaven is not Catholic exclusive.

Well, with the quotes I referenced earlier I can certainly understand why they might have thought that was the church's position.

For Protestants, the Catholic Church entrusts them to God's mercy as long as they follow Him to the best of their ability with the truth and light that they have. It is still possible for them to achieve salvation.

Do they take the same position on Hindus, Buddhists, and Atheists?

The following article might help you understand the Catholic position:

Salvation for Non-Christians Explained Sola Scriptura

Okay your article says "This grace was given in the past without means of baptism—and in certain instances it is still given without baptism when people have either no knowledge of baptism or no access to it. Acts 10:45–47 demonstrates unambiguously God giving Cornelius the Holy Spirit (that sanctifying grace necessary for salvation) before Cornelius received baptism. This was after Christ and the apostles had already preached the necessity of faith in Christ and baptism for salvation."

It sounds as if the catholic position is that either you need to be a baptized catholic, no knowledge of baptism, or no access to it. I take that to mean that people who have knowledge of the catholic church but like their own religion are going to hell.

The depths of God's wisdom and mercy cannot be measured. Our feeble minds cannot fully comprehend how God works.

I just want more clarification on the catholic church, not god.

All those people you mentioned in your examples are in danger of going to hell. But through God's mercy they may be saved.

If all those people are in danger regardless of how good a person they are then I personally feel it's ridiculous. It's exactly why I'm not religious anymore.

I feel that catholics especially put so much emphasis on rituals that they forget what's important. If there's a god that cares more if some priest dribbled water on a frightened baby than the way that person has lived their life I want no part of it. Jesus was not so judgmental really.

Another weird ritual is the sacrament. I was taught that catholics actually believe that the wafer and wine is actually physically the body and blood of Christ, not just a symbol. I'm not a cannibal, why would I want to eat Jesus?

I do understand the tactic from a marketing perspective. A lot religions have to promote their religion as the only religion that will get you to heaven in order to get and retain followers.

Every few months I go to a non denominational christian local church that I like that focuses on living well, the teachings of Jesus, meditation, and even has a regular guest speaker who is homosexual who speaks about about their world travels and the great points of other religions they have surveyed.


I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
-Mohandas Gandhi

If you really want to be exposed to some thought provoking teachings on how to live well instead rote religious dogma check out J. Krishanmurti.

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/

 

[tonksy]

Umm...Catholics aren't the only ones who baptize....

 

[chcr]

Umm...Catholics aren't the only ones who baptize....

Yes, but like most of the others they think their's is the only one that counts.