Hamas claims majority in new Palestinian elections

flavio said:
I think it would give a better understanding of the situation if we looked at the fact that the Israeli's have actually been annihiliating Palestine and it's peoples

Annihilation isn't something you can really take decades and decades to complete. The region called Palestine still stands and its peoples remain. As has been said, Israel could annihilate its enemies if it wanted to. But it doesn't.

....and that originally and for the most part the Israeli's have been the aggressors.

How do you figure?

It's probably good to realize also that the Israeli claim to Palestine is certainly bullshit. In fact it's even difficult justify the creation of Israel in 1948 at all. Jews immigrated to Palestine from other countries, subjugated the native people, dispossesed and expelled them from their land, denied them polital rights, destroyed their villages, indicriminately used torture, massacred civilians like cowards, and and left hundreds of thousands of refugees homeless and starving.

Are you completely ignorant of the history of that region? Jews have called the region home for 3,000 years.

The fact that Israel is a state built on conquest, that it has invaded surrounding countries, bombed and destroyed at will, to the fact that it currently occupies Lebanese, Syrian, and Palestinian territory against international law, and violated UN mandates and Geneva conventions might have something to do with their outlook on the Jews.

Are you ignoring that these countries provoked and/or attacked Israel first?

That Israel has incredible military superiority in large part because of weapons and massive funding from the US could explain the use of terrorist tactics instead of conventional battles and their hostility towards America.

Okay, so now you're justifying the specific and deliberate destruction of civilians. How leftist of you.

Actually it's incredible that the media hasn't considered this a better explanation for "Islamic Terror" than the usual blaming it on Muslim idealogy, "they despise our way of life", or "hate freedom".

Yeah, I can't imagine why, with their free and open societies, those people would hate freedom. I think they're just understood, really. Who are we to say what is right or wrong, anyway?

It also makes it seem likely that a more responsible foreign policy could actually decrease terrorism and hostility instead of Bush's war which has increased them. Maybe that's not the goal though.

Bush and those around him are idiots. It isn't the war itself that is wrong but th eway it was fought.
 
Oh My Goodness!

and just 'how' would you fight it
pray-tell our wannabee Commander-in-Chief?
 
Winky said:
Oh My Goodness!

and just 'how' would you fight it
pray-tell our wannabee Commander-in-Chief?

I don't know how I would fight it now or how I would have fought it then. I am not trying to fight any wars. I can tell you I would have listened to generals rather than Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz.
 
it's good to know we'd be in better hands
with you as leader of the free world

whew

I was a bit concerned there for a sec...
 
I never said we'd be in better hands if I was in charge. That's why I am not trying to be president. Good job focusing on the argument at hand instead of deflecting to whether or not I would make a good president.
 
Holy crap. I knew ignoring him would save my BP a few hundred points.

I wonder if he knew what the Jews were willing to accept & what the Palestinians turned down on 1938 because Palestinme WAS NOT, WAS NOT WILLING TO BECOME, IS NOT NOR EVER HAS BEEN AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY YOU &^%$^%)%))($%$(^(

oh, awfully worked up over an ignored members quote. Pardon me please.
 
People refuse to acknowledge that Palestine is and always has been a region which today includes Israel and Jordan. The Palestinian Arabs got Jordan, the Palestinian Jews got Israel, a fraction of the size of Jordan. And yet the Jews are still willing to consider their ludicrous claim to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is not even mention in the Koran, but they claim it is a holy place. Fuck them.
 
Trau said:
Annihilation isn't something you can really take decades and decades to complete. The region called Palestine still stands and its peoples remain. As has been said, Israel could annihilate its enemies if it wanted to. But it doesn't.
Actually there's no time limit on annihiliation. Maybe they would do it quicker if it wasn't so important for them to play up this ficticious victim image and milk other countries for aid.

Fact is a large part of Palestine and the people don't remain. Vast numbers of Palestinians have been cleansed from their own land. Israelis's from the start intended to take the rest of the Palestinians land....

"While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including...Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians."Israeli historian, Benny Morris, in "Tikkun", March/April 1998.



"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever."Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."





How do you figure?
Gandhi on the Palestine conflict - 1938

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.




"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."



"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."



Are you completely ignorant of the history of that region? Jews have called the region home for 3,000 years.
Even if it was as simple as that would it make all the horrible things that I mentioned ok?

History of Region.

Are you ignorant of the Zionist immigration, expulsion of native people by immigrants, and do you what created all those Palestinian refugees in the first place?

"Nathan Chofshi - 'Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous sickness of causeless hatred...It is bound to bring complete ruin upon us. Only then will the old and young in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who were brought here from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruits of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather; and in whose cities that we robbed we put up houses of education, charity, and prayer, while we babble and rave about being the "People of the Book" and the "light of the nations"'...


Israel's responsibility for Refugees - The Jewish military advantage was translated into an act of mass expulsion of more than half of the Palestinian population. The Israeli forces, apart from rare exceptions, expelled the Palestinians from every village and town they occupied. In some cases, this expulsion was accompanied by massacres [of civilians] as was the case in Lydda, Ramleh, Dawimiyya, Sa'sa, Ein Zietun and other places. Expulsion also was accompanied by rape, looting and confiscation [of Palestinian land and property]...

The Myth of Arab Intransigence - [The U.N.] convened a peace conference in Lausanne, Switzerland in the spring of 1949. Before the conference, the U.N. General Assembly adopted a resolution that in effect replaced the November 1947 partition resolution. This new resolution, Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948, accepted [U.N. Mediator] Bernadotte's triangular basis for a comprehensive peace: an unconditional return of all the refugees to their homes, the internationalization of Jerusalem, and the partitioning of Palestine into two states. This time, several Arab states and various representatives of the Palestinians accepted this as a basis for negotiations, as did the United States, which was running the show at Lausanne...Prime Minister David Ben Gurion strongly opposed any peace negotiations along these lines...The only reason he was willing to allow Israel to participate in the peace conference was his fear of an angry American reaction...The road to peace was not taken due to Israeli, not Arab, intransigence.

Conclusions - The new Israeli historians...wish to rectify what their research reveals as past evils...There was a high price exacted in creating a Jewish state in Palestine. And there were victims, the plight of whom still fuels the fire of conflict in Palestine." Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe in "The Link", January, 1998.

I'll get to the rest tomorrow.

[Edit} Added the rest....

Trau said:
Are you ignoring that these countries provoked and/or attacked Israel first?
Care to explain that? Even if that were so would it give Israel the right to occupy areas of these countries, start building settlements, steal resources, and ignore many many UN and Security Council resolutions?



Okay, so now you're justifying the specific and deliberate destruction of civilians. How leftist of you.
I didn't justify it. I explained why it might occur. Maybe you can justify why Israeli's originated these tactics?

Yeah, I can't imagine why, with their free and open societies, those people would hate freedom. I think they're just understood, really. Who are we to say what is right or wrong, anyway?
Was this supposed to relate to my point somewhow?


Bush and those around him are idiots. It isn't the war itself that is wrong but th eway it was fought.
It's pretty clear no matter how it was fought it's the wrong route.
 
Flav, I'll admit that's more reading than I'm prepared to do at the moment, but I'll try to get back to it. But, does it mention anywhere in there that more palestinians have been killed by other arab tribes that have been by jews? They're not the most popular people by anyone's standards.
 
Gonz said:
Holy crap. I knew ignoring him would save my BP a few hundred points.

I wonder if he knew what the Jews were willing to accept & what the Palestinians turned down on 1938 because Palestinme WAS NOT, WAS NOT WILLING TO BECOME, IS NOT NOR EVER HAS BEEN AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY YOU &^%$^%)%))($%$(^(
Usually you would laugh at a moderator that prevented himself from seeing all the posts but really it's a little sad. Running a away chanting, "Na, na, na, na, na, na! I can't hear youuuu!" like a little kid.

I'd love to hear what he thinks happened in 1938 that makes all the difference and how the little freak out in caps about countries affects anything though.

Trau said:
People refuse to acknowledge that Palestine is and always has been a region which today includes Israel and Jordan. The Palestinian Arabs got Jordan, the Palestinian Jews got Israel, a fraction of the size of Jordan. And yet the Jews are still willing to consider their ludicrous claim to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is not even mention in the Koran, but they claim it is a holy place. Fuck them.
Just to make it easy let's say everything you said is 100% correct. How does it justify what the Jews did?
 
flavio said:
Just to make it easy let's say everything you said is 100% correct. How does it justify what the Jews did?


your right killing all those germans,,wait that isn't it, oh yeah suicide bombing public places, no wait....

:alienhuh:
 
Professur said:
Flav, I'll admit that's more reading than I'm prepared to do at the moment, but I'll try to get back to it. But, does it mention anywhere in there that more palestinians have been killed by other arab tribes that have been by jews? They're not the most popular people by anyone's standards.


*sigh* it's more reading than i should have ever done, if I wanted piles of bullshit I would move back to alberta
 
some more

'cept this time they've taken the

'never again'

to a whole new level

a Zionist nation armed with Nukes level

nah the Jews don't have to worry as long as
they've got nukes and good old Uncle Sam on their side.
 
catocom said:
I wonder...
Have they named their new country yet, or are they just going to keep calling
it Israel, and continue the agenda of genocide on the Israelis?
My guess is the latter.
Israeli's are fairing a little better continuing their agenda of genocide on the Palestinians so far.

Professur said:
Flav, I'll admit that's more reading than I'm prepared to do at the moment, but I'll try to get back to it. But, does it mention anywhere in there that more palestinians have been killed by other arab tribes that have been by jews?
When you get back to it you'll see it's a good read. It doesn't mention your claim but I'm not sure how relevant it is to the situation with Israel.

paul_valero said:
your right killing all those germans,,wait that isn't it, oh yeah suicide bombing public places, no wait....
Somebody killed a bunch of Germans to justify what the Jews did? What are you talking about?

paul_valero said:
*sigh* it's more reading than i should have ever done, if I wanted piles of bullshit I would move back to alberta
If you want to claim something is bullshit (or other claims) and have it be meaningful at all an explanation would be a good idea. Maybe what parts/sentences are bullshit, some reason why it was bullshit, or even better supply some sort of proof that it's bullshit.

See, like when Gonz says things like "In Arabic, ceasefire means TIME OUT while I rearm" and doesn't give any reasons why he said it.

It's better if you say something like "In Hebrew, ceasefire means TIME OUT while we massacre civilians" and give some reasons or proof like...

In June 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon with the declared intention to eliminate the PLO. A cease-fire was arranged. PLO troops withdrew from Beirut and were transferred to neighboring countries after guarantees of safety were provided for thousands of Palestinian refugees left behind. Subsequently, a large-scale massacre of refugees took place in the camps of Sabra and Shatila.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
 
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