Inhuman religious zealot goes mad!

[MrBishop]

Y'know Bish, I give up. You read every word of what I posted, and didn't understand a single one. Where did I say hate crime?

Now this guy's raising a monument to his view of religion. Warped, perhaps. But what all are you guys suggesting? Destruction of property? Personal attacks?

And Bish. Nothing he's said in any way is contradicted by the Bible. AND . Considering that you uphold the right for a gay priest to hold office, in direct violation of scripture ...

Ah fuck it. You're to fucking pc to see or care. Just your thread title shows how you're just as intolerant as he is.

Gato, thanks for the effort at realism.

you didn't say hate-crime, I did. You can hate something, but when you try to spread that hatred onto others, it's hate-literature or a hate-crime. this guy's monument isn't about his religious beliefs...it's a "personal attack" against an individual which also promotes attacks against others ike him.

I don't see ris' words as a hate crime.

Prof...what about "Love thy neighbour", "Do onto others as you would have done onto you" and "Turn the other cheek" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". In what he's doing, he's contradicting ALL of those. To put it in context, there are somewhere between 25,000-27,000 sentences in the Bible, one (1) of them deals with homosexuality. That's the one he's picked. He's ignored all the rest...Which should he break next "Thou shalt not kill" ? Will that one sentence in the Bible justify breaking that commandment?

The end of that one sentence is "...it is an abomination" and not "...thou shalt kill them"

There's nothing in the scriptures stopping gay people from being ministers, any more than there is about women being ministers...but try and find me a Female Roman Catholic priest. Interpretation.

I'm not too PC to care about your arguements. I'm not so PC that I won't listen to them. This has nothing with being PC. This has something to do about being human and acting humane. I truly believe that the amount of energy that he puts into that one focus, that one hatred makes him a zealot. (One who is religiously devoted to an ideal, cause, object, person, or culture. Typically to an extreme) . I truly believe that he's insane.

Final point: I am intolerant of intolerance. All men are created equal and all loved in the eyes of God.

 

[Gonz]

First of all, let's get one thing completely straight. No matter what the PC crowd (or the US Congress) say, there is no such thing as a hate crime.

A crime is an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;.

Whether that act occurs against a minority individual, a minority group, a majority individual or group, no matter the reasoning (excepting self-defense) it is simply a crime. A murdered gay is no more valuable than a murdered woman. An assault against a black man is no more vile than an assault against white guy. They are all equally criminal. We shouldn't care what the motivation was that created a victim & a criminal, we should only care about justice.

 

[A.B.Normal]

Whether that act occurs against a minority individual, a minority group, a majority individual or group, no matter the reasoning (excepting self-defense) it is simply a crime. A murdered gay is no more valuable than a murdered woman. An assault against a black man is no more vile than an assault against white guy. They are all equally criminal. We shouldn't care what the motivation was that created a victim & a criminal, we should only care about justice.

Someone who shoots a police officer has always been seen as more of a threat, because if they attack police they are more likely not to worry about killing someone else.Someone who rapes a child are also rightly treated differently than others .

Its not a matter of who or what the victim is its a matter of why they were chosen as a victim based on who or what they are.

 

[Gonz]

In L.A. several years ago, we had a ballot measure to vote whether a police shooter should get an extra X number of years. It passed, overwhelmingly. I voted no. A cop is no more special than a janitor. In fact, a cop knows the odds before accepting the job.

Its not a matter of who or what the victim is

You could've stopped there & been right.

 

[MrBishop]

First of all, let's get one thing completely straight. No matter what the PC crowd (or the US Congress) say, there is no such thing as a hate crime.

A crime is an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;.

Whether that act occurs against a minority individual, a minority group, a majority individual or group, no matter the reasoning (excepting self-defense) it is simply a crime. A murdered gay is no more valuable than a murdered woman. An assault against a black man is no more vile than an assault against white guy. They are all equally criminal. We shouldn't care what the motivation was that created a victim & a criminal, we should only care about justice.

OK...it's a term. This man is committing Libel against another. That's a crime and punisheable by the law.

Let's look at it from your point of view. Someone (Mr.A) gets killed, Mr.A's friends raise a monument to his memory, Mr.B else doesn't like what Mr.A stood for. Mr.B raises a libelous monument against Mr.A .

Does Mr.B have a right to do this?

 

[outside looking in]

OK...it's a term. This man is committing Libel against another. That's a crime and punisheable by the law.

It's not libel. Libel is making a statement of fact (in "written form", whether through print, pictures, etc.) that is in fact false and damaging to someone's reputation.

Phelps is making a statement of opinion. That is not a statement of fact, and cannot be considered libel, as an opinion can never be false.

Examples:

Statement of fact: "the sky is yellow." That is a statement of fact that is actually false.

Statement of opinion: "blue skies are prettier than yellow." It is neither true nor false... just an opinion.

Religion gets a bit weird philosophically, but I and many others consider religious statements of fact to actually be opinions, as there is absolutely no way to prove one way or the other. For example, saying "being gay is wrong" is a statement of opinion so long as you are referring to the moral sense of the word wrong and not the legal definition. Saying "you will go to hell for being gay" is technically a statement of fact, but since it is so intimately tied to an opinion about the morality of being gay, and is in fact inprovable in either case, I would treat that as an opinion as well.

Sorry for the long rant. Just wanted to clear up your incorrect use of the term "libel."

 

[MrBishop]

It's not libel. Libel is making a statement of fact (in "written form", whether through print, pictures, etc.) that is in fact false and damaging to someone's reputation.."

the statement was written on the plaque...it's damaging to the reputation of Matt (Mr.A). It's stated as if it were a fact...On such and such a day, Mr.A entered Hell for ignoring God's law...

I propose that it was a false statement. I propose that Mr.A was judged and may just have entered heaven. I also propose that Heaven and Hell do not exist and that Mr.A just died, period. The statement that Mr.A entered a place where only unrepentant sinners go is thus false.

Mr.B printed a false statement as if it were factual, and in doing so, damaged the reputation of Mr.A

 

[Professur]

And yet again, Bish completely misses the point.

 

[paul_valaru]

I am totally lost now.

So I'll just state my opinion, cause I can .

Phelps is a messed up moron

When he dies, I would love to put a monument to him, saying "On *the date of death* Phelps went to hell for missing the point entirely, he is currently residing in circle 8, section 3, the section reserved for those who twist things to there own sick ends, his room mates goebbels, and himmler"

 

[outside looking in]

Geez Bish, you didn't even read all of my post before responding, did you?

 

[Professur]

I am totally lost now.

So I'll just state my opinion, cause I can .

Phelps is a messed up moron

When he dies, I would love to put a monument to him, saying "On *the date of death* Phelps went to hell for missing the point entirely, he is currently residing in circle 8, section 3, the section reserved for those who twist things to there own sick ends, his room mates goebbels, and himmler"

Just tell me where to send my cheque.

 

[MrBishop]

Geez Bish, you didn't even read all of my post before responding, did you?

I had, but I keep my girlish figure by leaping at shadows and jumping to conclusions.

OK...This guy is a sad little man with delusions of grandeur, who happens to hold a post as priest. He's using an otherwise good religion based on love to twist his parishioners into hateful people. In putting up this statue, he is demeaning the memory of an individuals life and everything that he stood for. In addition, he's being mentally abusive to the family and friends of the deceased.

I can think of several reasons for stopping this man from putting up this statue, can anyone tell me of a good reason for NOT stopping him? Something that will not upset the freedom of speechers.

Pray tell Prof...what is the point?
Is the point that we can't stop him or that we shouldn't try?
Is the point that it's OK for him to do this because it's just some fag that's paying the price?
Can there be a point to all this hatred in the name of God?

I think not.

 

[outside looking in]

He's using an otherwise good religion based on love to twist his parishioners into hateful people. In putting up this statue, he is demeaning the memory of an individuals life and everything that he stood for.

That's his right.

 

[paul_valaru]

That's his right.

It is his right, doesn't make him right. People like this man crave attention, ignore him, and he loses power.

 

[MrBishop]

That's his right.

So...my suggestion of creating a statue of him rear-ending a sheep, whilst wearing women's underwear would be just dandy because I'm not libeling him and it's my right to do so?

So...send the checks to MrBishop
c/o
Off Topic Central
The Internet
00000

I'll start talking to some artists that I know about the price for the bronze and the cost of shipping such a large piece.

 

[Professur]

Last attempt to drive some understanding into your head.

I had, but I keep my girlish figure by leaping at shadows and jumping to conclusions.

Allow me to correct myself. You didn't miss the point. You dismissed the point. You decided it was without value and ignored it.

OK...This guy is a sad little man with delusions of grandeur, who happens to hold a post as priest.

Can you think of any other definition for a priest? There isn't a priest alive who doesn't feel he's got a personal pipeline to God. In fact, if you were to read your New Testament, we're all supposed to.

He's using an otherwise good religion based on love to twist his parishioners into hateful people.

Obviously, you need to reread your Old Testament too.

In putting up this statue, he is demeaning the memory of an individuals life and everything that he stood for.

And embracing what he believes in. So because you don't like what he believes in, he's inhuman?

In addition, he's being mentally abusive to the family and friends of the deceased.

That there's a statement of fact. Do you have psychiatric test results to back it up? Didn't think so.

I can think of several reasons for stopping this man from putting up this statue,

All of which revolve around your opinion of good end evil. Who gave you the right to judge? More precisely, what makes you a better judge than him?

can anyone tell me of a good reason for NOT stopping him?

Actually, I can think of several. But the best one is that, unless your prepared to tear down each and every monument erected that some opinionated asshole objects to, you've no right to tear down any.

Something that will not upset the freedom of speechers.

Actually, there are several freedoms involved. Freedom of speach and freedom of religion are just the two most obvious.

Pray tell Prof...what is the point?
Is the point that we can't stop him or that we shouldn't try?
Is the point that it's OK for him to do this because it's just some fag that's paying the price?
Can there be a point to all this hatred in the name of God?

I think not.

The point is that you need to get off your soapbbox and look around some. You may not like what he's done, but read back at what you've posted. You're no better. You have attacked, slandered, and rundown a man you don't even know. All on the basis of a PC obsessed press coverage. Take a reality check.

Last post in this.

 

[Bungi]

the statement was written on the plaque...it's damaging to the reputation of Matt (Mr.A). It's stated as if it were a fact...On such and such a day, Mr.A entered Hell for ignoring God's law...

I propose that it was a false statement. I propose that Mr.A was judged and may just have entered heaven. I also propose that Heaven and Hell do not exist and that Mr.A just died, period. The statement that Mr.A entered a place where only unrepentant sinners go is thus false.

Mr.B printed a false statement as if it were factual, and in doing so, damaged the reputation of Mr.A

And I propose that hell IS a real place and that Mr. A DID go there, making my statement true, you have no way to PROVE otherwise, so you can't make a justified claim of libel.

All of which revolve around your opinion of good end evil. Who gave you the right to judge? More precisely, what makes you a better judge than him?

Amen prof.

 

[MrBishop]

Please allow me to place a human face on this:

Friday October 16, 1998
The funeral has taken place in the United States of Matthew Shepard, a 21 year-old student, who was savagely beaten to death because he was gay. Friends and family gathered in pouring rain at the church in the town of Casper, Wyoming, where he was baptised. Matthew had been lured from a campus bar shortly after midnight on October 7 by two men who told him they were gay. He was driven to a remote area near the Sherman Hills neighbourhood east of Laramie, tied to a split-rail fence, tortured, beaten and pistol-whipped by his attackers, while he begged for his life; he was then left for dead in near freezing temperatures. A cyclist who found him on Snowy Mountain View Road at 6:22 pm, some 18 hours after the attack, at first mistook him for a scarecrow. He was unconscious and suffering from hypothermia. His face was caked with blood, except where it had been partially washed clean by tears.

Matthew died at 12:53 am on Monday 12th October 1998, at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado, with his family at his bedside. Hospital officials said Matthew had a fracture from behind his head to just in front of his right ear and a massive brain stem injury which affected his vital signs, including his heart beat, body temperature and other involuntary functions. There were also approximately a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. He was so badly injured in the attack that doctors were unable to operate. He never regained consciousness after being found, and remained on full life support.

While Matthew lay dying in hospital, just a few miles away, a group of students from Colorado State University thought it would be funny to ride atop a homecoming float that featured a scarecrow figure designed to resemble Matthew's battered body. The figure was wearing a sign that said "I'm gay." An obscene message was painted across the back of the scarecrow's shirt. The students didn't mean to be insensitive. It was supposed to be a joke. They were just ordinary, average guys, having a bit of fun.

Fact: A human being has been killed. He was killed because he was gay, and for no other reason. His killers are in jail and his family went to bat for them so that they would not face the death penalty. Protecting the killers of your child from the death penalty because it goes against your religious beliefs is perhaps the highest form of humanism.

This preacher hates gays. The origins of his hatred is irrelevant. It may be his readings of the Bible, it may be homophobia, it may be something that happened to him as a child, or as an adult.

The point is what he's done with his hate.He's promoted it from the pulpit and from the streets. He's incited others to do the same. He's put together a web-site which states how long Matthew has been in hell, as well as other specifics about it. He's putting up a statue of Matt with an anti-gay message on it.

He's obsessed with this particular human being.You all have proved to me that there's nothing that can be done to stop this man, or worst...no reason to.

Some of you may think that there's nothing wrong with his message. I would like to think that there are many more that think that it is wrong.

Some of you are playing "Devil's advocate" in order to protect the Freedom of Speech or the freedom of Religion, while ignoring the human issue. If that helps you sleep at night so be it.

A human being is dead. We should let him rest in peace.

I'm sick of this thread. Please close it.