Is protesting still good?

[Ardsgaine]

i do not see that either can be 100% correct either, so there is some margin for an element of wrong.

Let me pull one from your line of work and see if that helps. You design a building. An engineer looks at your design and tells you that the building won't stand. Obviously, that's a polarized viewpoint. He's not saying it might stand, or it will mostly stand, he's saying the darn thing's going to fall over. Does the fact that his viewpoint is polarized make it wrong? Does it do any good to criticize it on that basis?

 

[ris]

if i am unable to identify that my building cannot even partially stand then i have done the right thing in seeking an engineers opinion. i am not an engineer and would not be designing buildings with serious intent without the input of an engineer.

if i had produced a building with engineers advice and then i was told that the thing could not possibly stand then i have two professionals standing in opposition. the answer is most likely to be a change to the design unless one can be proven to be factually inaccurate.

i would consider factual information, proven by laws of science and engineering, are somewhat apart from viewpoints of opinion.

 

[Ardsgaine]

i would consider factual information, proven by laws of science and engineering, are somewhat apart from viewpoints of opinion.

And that's ultimately where we disagree. I believe that the principle that government should be limited to the protection of individual rights is as absolute as any prinicple of physics.

 

[ris]

it remains a belief however, and i would say that the more powerful the belief the more it becomes statements of ideology. from observance we see that worst elements of religion [as example] are formed when stretched to a point of absolute ideology.

 

[Ardsgaine]

i would say that the more powerful the belief the more it becomes statements of ideology.

You use the word 'ideology' as if that's a bad thing...

i·de·ol·o·gy
n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

Where's the value judgment? I would think that the value of the ideology depends on its content.

from observance we see that worst elements of religion [as example] are formed when stretched to a point of absolute ideology.

What makes religion bad is that it's wrong. When taken to extremes, it's extremely wrong.

 

[chcr]

What makes religion bad is that it's wrong. When taken to extremes, it's extremely wrong.

You know, living here in the bible belt, I try never to say that. In my heart, I wonder if there is any greater truth.

 

[freako104]

What makes religion bad is that it's wrong

i wouldnt say its wrong just because i dont agree with it mate. the extremists scare me but they are following their beliefs. just like anyone who follows their own religion.

 

[freako104]

In my heart, I wonder if there is any greater truth

i personally think there is myself i dont knwo for sure but i think there is

 

[Ardsgaine]

i wouldnt say its wrong just because i dont agree with it mate.

Really? Why not? Are you not confident in the reasoning process that led you to conclude that it's wrong? If you're uncertain of your conclusion, then have you gone back over it to recheck it? If you have checked it and rechecked it, then what makes you afraid to conclude that you're right and they're wrong?

 

[chcr]

i dont knwo for sure but i think there is

Sad thing is freako, I do know for sure, I'm just not willing to give up my life to go start telling everyone how wrong they are. "Selfish" of me I suppose, but there it is.

 

[Squiggy]

Why did none of you insist on taking down the evil royal families in Kuwait or SA? Always you follow W's instructions to "think like him or else." Are you not capable of seeing the same injustices by those other regimes? Do you need W to finally decide for you which other countries need the same treatment by us? Are their atrocities forgiven simply because they rented us airspace at exhorbitant prices?

 

[Ardsgaine]

Why did none of you insist on taking down the evil royal families in Kuwait or SA? Always you follow W's instructions to "think like him or else." Are you not capable of seeing the same injustices by those other regimes? Do you need W to finally decide for you which other countries need the same treatment by us? Are their atrocities forgiven simply because they rented us airspace at exhorbitant prices?

Squiggy, why are you asking these questions when I've already told you exactly what I think on this subject? And why do you insist on accusing us of "following W's instructions" when you know damn well that we're doing our own thinking? This is just empty rhetoric meant to smear your opponents instead of addressing our arguments.

The war is a done deal, and I don't intend to argue with you about it anymore. The results will speak for themselves.

 

[Gonz]

Why did none of you insist on taking down the evil royal families in Kuwait or SA? Always you follow W's instructions to "think like him or else." Are you not capable of seeing the same injustices by those other regimes? Do you need W to finally decide for you which other countries need the same treatment by us? Are their atrocities forgiven simply because they rented us airspace at exhorbitant prices?

I've also given you quality reasoning to not strike at the heart & the way it will be accomplished without war.

Everybody see's the need to change SA but there are more compelling reasons to not attack...

 

[Squiggy]

The same fucking argument was put forth by the left regarding Iraq and it drew accusations of being a, liberal commie. Now you want permission to use it ...I'm quickly getting back to that 'special rules' feeling about the right....

 

[outside looking in]

First off Squiggy, if you really wanted answers to your questions, how about reading my previous posts where I answered them the first dozen times.

Second...

Always you follow W's instructions to "think like him or else...."

Do you need W to finally decide for you...

Sorry squig, that's just complete bullshit and you know it. I've told flav, and I'll tell you the same. I'm fucking fed up with the liberals using this fucking retard bullshit rhetoric. Stop shadowboxing with Bush and actually talk to us goddamnit. I'm not fucking G.W. Bush, and if I happen to agree with some of what he says and does, that's no different than you happening to agree with some of what Marx said.

Do you use your own fucking brain to come to your own conclusions and make your own decisions? Well so do we.

Comprende?

 

[Squiggy]

Apparently you all missed the point so I guess I have to accept responsibility for poorly communicating it. I recognized, prior to the first attack on Iraq, that it was rather hypocritical to attack them in defense of Kuwait because kuwait was no better than Iraq when it came to human rights. I'm asking the same question about the current situation. I'm not arguing about the war anymore. I'm asking why none ever seem to realize that some leader is bad unless W points at them and says "evil doer"......If he started talking up the evidence tieing SA to 911, I think you would all fall in line with attack slogans...despite the arguments you're putting forth now. Put me on ignore if you like oli. I don't give a fuck. I've got one of those buttons too.

 

[outside looking in]

Look, I'm fine with people having different opinions. Vastly different opinions. But if you can't even acknowledge that my opinion is MY OPINION and not just a regurgitation of what Bush said, then what's the point in attempting to discuss anydamnthing?

About no one realizing Saddam was bad until G.W. pointed it out... you're kidding I hope.

And how about this one: it is possible to realize that SA might be the root of many ME problems and possibly the most dangerous group to the wellbeing of the US, and still believe it is correct to attack Iraq first.

Hell... I've explained all this before. It's a waste of my time.

 

[Squiggy]

oli, I've already acknowledged respect for your opinions on the ME. And they were sincere. I don't agree with the direction it went but thats life. You are one of five or six voices waiting to pounce on any left wing thought. I'm not going to let each of you take me in a different direction so I have five or six arguments going. Todays announcment that Hitler=liberal left has made me realize what a waste of fucking time this is. And as for,

About no one realizing Saddam was bad until G.W. pointed it out... you're kidding I hope.

...I wasn't kidding. Ards questioned SA being linked to 911. Why? Because bush somehow managed to point at Iraq.

We had an obligation to those who died on 911 and I'll be damned if I'm going to let you guys call me unamerican, commie, liberal, nazi or whatever the new term de'jour for the left wing is, just because I want to honor that obligation.

 

[outside looking in]

Oh, I see, you want to honor the obligation to the 9/11 victims, and we just want to play on the McDonald's playground. Now I get it.



Even the loverboy Clinton knew Saddam was bad. Real bad. Bush Sr. knew this. We all knew this (at least, I guess some of us didn't have our heads stuck in the sand). What's more, we know that there are other bad people. Saddam is by no means the only one.

Making a statement like you did above, that we only realized Saddam was bad when G.W. pointed a finger at him, is just... well, I'm at a loss for words here.

 

[Gonz]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/