More whining...
- Thread starter Gato_Solo
- Start date
Also, not quite pre-war runup is it?
He didn't say Al Qaeda.
Of course, here he does.
One paragraph, following a paragraph on terror in general.
chcr, you have been here. You should recall that I've been fighting this fight all along. The case for Iraq was not based on its connection to AlQaeda. That claim has been tossed around since the beginning. It's hard to find Bush laying claim that AQ is among the reasons we overthrew Saddam. Especially pre-invasion; the only time it counts.
WMDs
Desert Storm
Terrorism, in general.
Those were the presiding reasons.
89th time? When has anyone, including you, said it wasn't under his control? He controlled everythign else in Iraq. Why would he allow this to go on or be unable to stop it?minkey said:
chcr
Too cute for words
The 2004 comments are defending the prewar run-up (as you did). If you were familiar with the timeline you would have recognized that this was just after the 9/11 Commission report, I think. Of course now that it's become even more obvious they've backed of from that position (as you have). I realize that you've been trying to justify the unjustifiable all along. You should wake up and smell the coffee. Fiasco from day one, fiasco today. You keep trying to convince people that the people in charge are not the people responsible. Sorry, yes they are. 
I don't recall AQ being part of this. I truly don't. As I said, I've been fighting that since the beginning. It was such a miniscule part of the whole run up yet seems to have taken center stage.
Terrorism includes AQ but is not limited to them.
Speasking of fiascoi, the 9/11 Commission? Didn't that include Jamie Gurelic?
The only thing I see today is ass covering, on both sides.
Terrorism includes AQ but is not limited to them.
Speasking of fiascoi, the 9/11 Commission? Didn't that include Jamie Gurelic?
The only thing I see today is ass covering, on both sides.
2minkey
bootlicker
WMDs that turned out not to be there, unless you count the few vintage pieces that had been discarded.
Link to Terrorism. links to low level regional terrorism at most that were extremely unlikely to ever reach our shores.
12 years of ignoring UN Mandates (which were upheld by the two largest contingents in the subsequent battle) oh no, ignoring UN mandates. so now you think the UN should have authority? hey, that country you worship - israel - has ignored the UN for decades.
A seat of Democracy in the ME. yeah, that'll happen. hmm... half a trillion dollars to fail at that... what a fuckin' bargain!
A new place to hang our hats so the Muslims have no complaint about our being in Mecca. (much like the Ieaq-AQ connection, this too was mostly silent) don't worry, we're still in muslim lands of significant import, and they'll bitch about that next as they struggle to blame someone else for their problems.
real strong arguments there gonz.
snoooooze
Link to Terrorism. links to low level regional terrorism at most that were extremely unlikely to ever reach our shores.
12 years of ignoring UN Mandates (which were upheld by the two largest contingents in the subsequent battle) oh no, ignoring UN mandates. so now you think the UN should have authority? hey, that country you worship - israel - has ignored the UN for decades.
A seat of Democracy in the ME. yeah, that'll happen. hmm... half a trillion dollars to fail at that... what a fuckin' bargain!
A new place to hang our hats so the Muslims have no complaint about our being in Mecca. (much like the Ieaq-AQ connection, this too was mostly silent) don't worry, we're still in muslim lands of significant import, and they'll bitch about that next as they struggle to blame someone else for their problems.
real strong arguments there gonz.
snoooooze
chcr
Too cute for words
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
I've noticed that myself.
You think he got it?
Anyway...none of that really matters now, does it? Bottom line is that we're there now, and the only two options we have are...
1. Bail out and let the area collapse into barbarism...which it isn't that far from now...
2. Straighten the mess out.
While number two is going to be a long and costly process, number one will cause a repeat of the invasion in about 8 years..and another debate about 'cut and run' and 'stay the course', and another half trillion, or more, spent. Which do you choose?
chcr
Too cute for words
You think he got it?
Anyway...none of that really matters now, does it? Bottom line is that we're there now, and the only two options we have are...
1. Bail out and let the area collapse into barbarism...which it isn't that far from now...
2. Straighten the mess out.
While number two is going to be a long and costly process, number one will cause a repeat of the invasion in about 8 years..and another debate about 'cut and run' and 'stay the course', and another half trillion, or more, spent. Which do you choose?
One is the only viable choice given the political climate of the nation and the world right now. I don't think the re-invasion is inevitable either. This one wasn't, it was a put up job. As Bish says, they're both bad choices, but one does more for us as a nation than two does. It's not pretty, but there it is.
No, I don't get it. I think we went in and it was the right thing to do.
The cost factor. We pay now or we pay later & later & later, ad nauseam.
Look at the costs of rebuilding Japan & look at the benefit. Security & trade. It can happen here. The only barbarians are the ones we're fighting. The rest of the nation (huge majority) just wants to go to work & feed their family. Same as you.
The cost factor. We pay now or we pay later & later & later, ad nauseam.
Look at the costs of rebuilding Japan & look at the benefit. Security & trade. It can happen here. The only barbarians are the ones we're fighting. The rest of the nation (huge majority) just wants to go to work & feed their family. Same as you.
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
This ain't Japan, and it ain't Germany.
There were no Japanese kamikazes walking the streets looking for American troops to blow up, no German suicide bombers blowing up training centers for police and militia.
The war was over..papers were signed by politicians...and all that was left is infrastructure rebuilding. Iraq isn't just about replacing a bombed out bridge or putting people back to work....
It's a radically different situation and trying to apply one style to the other is more of a hinderance than a help, Gonz.
There were no Japanese kamikazes walking the streets looking for American troops to blow up, no German suicide bombers blowing up training centers for police and militia.
The war was over..papers were signed by politicians...and all that was left is infrastructure rebuilding. Iraq isn't just about replacing a bombed out bridge or putting people back to work....
It's a radically different situation and trying to apply one style to the other is more of a hinderance than a help, Gonz.
Yes, there were. Instead of reporting it as horrendous examples of our failures, we killed them & anybody that was associated with them. It went much faster that way. Today, similar reaction is reported like we're the criminals.
chcr
Too cute for words
See, I thought it was a mistake from the beginning and still do. The difference is that the evidence bears me out.
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
See, I thought it was a mistake from the beginning and still do. The difference is that the evidence bears me out.
Sorry, but I disagree. Mistake, or not, isn't the issue. Bail or not is. While it would be rosey to think that the first choice is the correct one, I'm not so sure. Once you start the killing, you don't stop until you're done. Some may think I'm preaching genocide, but I'm not. By leaving the area, we'll create a huge breeding ground for more hate, and more fanaticism. If we don't stop it now we will deal with it in the future, and it will be much worse. The fanatics have disliked the West since before the crusades. The only thing thats really changed is the weaponry. The tactics (become Muslim or die) have been pretty much the same.
chcr
Too cute for words
We can't stop it now (not without genocide anyway and I don't think anyone sane is seriously in favor of that) and we will continue to deal with it as we have for the last 40+ years. I'm not sure it can be worse than it is right now. One of the most invasive and dangerous myths of the late 20th/early 21st century is that muslim terrorism is a threat to western civilization. It is not and never will be. Pretending it is gives them exactly what they want. They're the enemy, why do we keep giving them what they're after in the first place?
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
I don't think the '72 olympics was a myth, nor do I see Khobar Towers as a myth, nor do I see the 1993 World Trade bombings as a myth, etc. While not the most important threat, it is still a quite viable one. Maybe we can't entirely stop it, but we can make it expensive for them.
As an aside, what do you think is the biggest threat to Western society? (besides liberal/conservative extremists)
chcr
Too cute for words
I don't think the '72 olympics was a myth, nor do I see Khobar Towers as a myth, nor do I see the 1993 World Trade bombings as a myth, etc. While not the most important threat, it is still a quite viable one. Maybe we can't entirely stop it, but we can make it expensive for them.
None of these incidents you mentioned, while abhorrent, had any significant effect on western society in general. Even the 9/11 attacks didn't. They are simply not a threat unless we make them one. Liberal/conservative extremism is not the number one threat, fear is. Every media outlet or politician wants you to live in fear. That's what's profitable.
They don't particularly care if if a threat is real as long as you spend money protecting yourself from it. We are living in one of the most peaceful, prosperous and free eras in world history. Unfortunately, governments in general aren't geared for that so the have to generate threats. There aren't enough terrorists (even if they ever would work together) to occupy Spartansburg, SC by force and yet these madmen are a threat to western civilization? Please, be honest with yourself and ignore the hype for a while.
Gato_Solo
Out-freaking-standing OTC member
None of these incidents you mentioned, while abhorrent, had any significant effect on western society in general. Even the 9/11 attacks didn't. They are simply not a threat unless we make them one. Liberal/conservative extremism is not the number one threat, fear is. Every media outlet or politician wants you to live in fear. That's what's profitable.
Hype? Au contrair mon frer...Fear is a survival mechanism, and is hardly the point. The threat is real, and minimizing it won't make it go away. as for numbers...There are enough terrorists to populate Memphis, and there are enough recruits to populate Nashville. What you see running about are cells.
You also have to take into account the price a person is willing to pay to get what they want. Most people will stop before it gets out of hand. Fanatics or nucases, if you were, don't stop. As for living in the most peaceful eras, do you have any idea whats going on in Africa? How about South America? All of those trouble spots took a back seat real quick when the press decided that our soujourne into Iraq was wrong. To give you a little information, look up FARC, Darfur, Kenya, Somalia, Shining Path, hell...look up Colombian Rebels, Argentinian rebels. Just because the press doen't deem it 'newsworthy' doesn't make it disappear. No matter how peaceful things may seem, there's always a war going on somewhere. There's always somebody 'fed up' with the system they live in that will do whatever they deem necessary to further their cause and bring about their version of utopia. You know this just as well as I do.