Negative reinforcement

[chcr]

After all what's more natural then hitting a kid?

Absolutely nothing natural about it, as you would know if you ever had to spank one. You know what, never mind.

 

[flavio]

is it your ultimate goal to keep on going and going and going and going and going and going until you've pissed everyone else off?

give it a rest man. thinking differently is one thing, but trying to defend your opinion (on whether people should or should NOT give their kids a slap if they've been highly annoying or did something very wrong) into the extreme just pushes people's patience.

you just don't know when to stop, do you?

It's interesting that you have a problem with me defending my opinion but not with others defending theirs.

 

[flavio]

Absolutely nothing natural about it, as you would know if you ever had to spank one. You know what, never mind.

See, like I said I don't have to spank my children since their are equally effective alternative methods I can use with them. The methods that don't make me worry about negative effects.

 

[PT]

Interesting sidenote, I'm getting a database error when trying to add someone to my ignore list.

 

[flavio]

Interesting sidenote, I'm getting a database error when trying to add someone to my ignore list.

When you can't defend your viewpoint in a debate whip out the personal attacks and ignore any facts that don't agree with your preconcieved ideas.

You're a class act there putter.

 

[Justintime]

whoohoo offical warnin not to let this slip into a personal attack frenzy

 

[flavio]

You know Gonz probably started this topic to get some interesting disussion going on a controversial issue since Real World has been a little slow lately.

I thought I would jump in and participate and have been the only one bringing much in the way of supporting evidence to the table. Now it wouldn't have been much of a discussion if everyone just said "yes, yes, spanking is good" but it looks like some people just can't stand to have someone disagree with them.

Everybody is free to raise their kids however they see fit within the law but that doesn't mean we can't debate the subject in a civilized manner.

 

[chcr]

Everybody is free to raise their kids however they see fit within the law but that doesn't mean we can't debate the subject in a civilized manner.

Point in your favor. How many kids do you have?

 

[Shadowfax]

It's interesting that you have a problem with me defending my opinion but not with others defending theirs.

oh, i don't have a problem with people defending their opinions at all, on the contrary. but it's to what extend.

and yeah, that's all i've got to say about this...enjoy

 

[ris]

interesting addition to this thread:

mp's call for new smacking law

in particular is this part of the article, regarding the law of 'reasonable chastisement':

According to the health select committee and the joint committee on human rights, that legal defence has too often been used to excuse violence against children.
[...]
In England alone, about 80 children die from physical abuse each year.

just to stay really on-topic, and by way of support for my previous posts, the nspcc [national society for the prevention of cruelty to children] found that in the 11 european countries with smacking bans:

It also claimed that changes to the law had not led to more unruly children and that they were widely accepted by both the general public and parents.

 

[PT]

When you can't defend your viewpoint in a debate whip out the personal attacks and ignore any facts that don't agree with your preconcieved ideas.

You're a class act there putter.

Yeah, that was a pretty big attack there, Flav. Wooo, I'd be pissed too.

I've decided that some points aren't worth arguing with some people. You are some people.

 

[flavio]

Yeah, that was a pretty big attack there, Flav. Wooo, I'd be pissed too.

I've decided that some points aren't worth arguing with some people. You are some people.

The attack were earlier in the thread like "parents like you are responsibile...", " pillar of morality", etc.

you started with the personal attacks very early on.

 

[PT]

Well, I stand behind what I said. Just as you do. We aren't going to agree on this any more than we agree on most topics, that is why I would like to put you on ignore. And I will. I suggest you do the same.

 

[flavio]

Well, I stand behind what I said. Just as you do. We aren't going to agree on this any more than we agree on most topics, that is why I would like to put you on ignore. And I will. I suggest you do the same.

I actually like to hear opposing views. I'd probably never learn anything if I just surrounded myself with people that agree with me on everything.

Although it's would be easier that way.

 

[ris]

i'm with pt, both of you best out of this thread. after all, don't they say ignoreance is bliss

 

[flavio]

interesting addition to this thread:

mp's call for new smacking law

Interesting article. It also says...

"Sweden, which has outlawed smacking, has had no deaths at all over the last 10 years at the hands of parents and carers," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

I wonder how that's working out for Sweden otherwise. Most likely some interesting information to be had.

 

[outside looking in]

flav, this is precisely why I have put you on ignore in the past. You typically make the first insults (often mind-numbingly offensive and broad), disguised as "objective and backed up" opinions (or, typically, stated as fact), and then put on the mask of "nice guy" until someone insults you - at which point you start whining about the argument becoming personal and how people just can't seem to argue on your mature level. I've seen this pattern from several members here on the boards. I think people must practice manipulating arguments like that.

Lest you forget (or try to deny) what started this mess, I'll make it very clear:

Hitting children is a pathetic attempt at parenting.

You just called any parent who has ever used physical disciplining of their children a pathetic parent. And you are bitching about some petty insults someone made to you? You insulted millions of good parents in one dumb statement.

In case the logic has escaped you, here is the basic argument: good parenting can be done without resorting to corporal punishment; good parenting can be done using corporal punishment. It isn't about whether the punishment method is physical or mental... it's how it's used, and the general attitude of the parents. Despite the grossly innappropriate generalization you made, I would argue that making a child sit in a closet for three days straight would be as damaging to the child as a typical loving spanking. Ridiculous comparison? So is talking about hitting a child to the point of child abuse. Abuse is abuse, in whatever form it might come.

I think if you read again with a bit of thought you'll find that you are wrong.

Nope, read them again. I am correct in my first assessment.

Now you're just making things up...why?

Sorry, I was recalling this statement you made:

It is often the case that the victim in domestic abuse cases thinks they deserve it too.

I thought you were insinuating a similarity between domestic abuse and child abuse, with the hypothesis that victims in both cases might think they deserved it. Or were you suggesting something else? Sorry if I misinterpreted, but I didn't intend to "make up" anything.

Yes, hit. Look up the word if you're not sure.

Again, look up the word. Trying to dumb things down by using a more comfortable word doesn't serve your cause.

Textbook definitions don't cover the vast connotations of words in coloquial discussions. You know this, which is why you intentionally use the word "hitting" by its textbook definition, knowing full well the connotation it has when used in such discussions. In the same manner that a Republican could talk about the government "robbing" them instead of "taxing" them, it only inflames (intentionally, in this case... poor poor mistreated flav ) the discussion and could be avoided, if civil discussion was really your goal.

I suspect the only studies you would find scientific are ones that encourage hitting children.

The only studies I find scientific are studies that are scientific. I can't make it any simpler than that.

There is nothing wrong with these studies...

There is something obviously wrong with these studies.

Some people like to err on the other side of caution....

If only it were that simple.

 

[fury]

Violence can be an effective means of behavior control but the psychological damage that comes as a side effect is not worth it in my opinion.

My mom spanked the hell out of me when I was growing up. I turned out OK, except for a screw fews loose, but who doesn't have those nowadays?

 

[flavio]

flav, this is precisely why I have put you on ignore in the past. You typically make the first insults (often mind-numbingly offensive and broad), disguised as "objective and backed up" opinions (or, typically, stated as fact), and then put on the mask of "nice guy" until someone insults you - at which point you start whining about the argument becoming personal and how people just can't seem to argue on your mature level. I've seen this pattern from several members here on the boards. I think people must practice manipulating arguments like that.

Lest you forget (or try to deny) what started this mess, I'll make it very clear:

Hitting children is a pathetic attempt at parenting.
You just called any parent who has ever used physical disciplining of their children a pathetic parent. And you are bitching about some petty insults someone made to you? You insulted millions of good parents in one dumb statement.

My statement was a general one expressing my opnion on the subject and certainly wasn't directed at any members.

If someone says "abortion is the same as murder" it's not a personal attack on every person who was ever involved in one. It's expressing your opinion on the subject.

A personal attack is different. It is an insult directed at a particular member. It's really not that difficult of a concept.

Despite the grossly innappropriate generalization you made, I would argue that making a child sit in a closet for three days straight would be as damaging to the child as a typical loving spanking. Ridiculous comparison? So is talking about hitting a child to the point of child abuse. Abuse is abuse, in whatever form it might come.

I thought the subject was physical punishment, that's what I was talking about and what the studies dealt with. If you want to talk about abuse start another thread.

Nope, read them again. I am correct in my first assessment.

Maybe you could point out specifically in each study where they have gone wrong.

I didn't intend to "make up" anything.

Ok then, so next time don't say I keep talking about child abuse when I never mentioned child abuse. Easy enough.

only inflames the discussion and could be avoided, if civil discussion was really your goal.

If "hit" upsets you that much I would be glad to use "spanking", physical punishment", or "corporal punishment" or maybe you could give me a list of acceptable terms for the subject matter?

The only studies I find scientific are studies that are scientific. I can't make it any simpler than that.

I've linked to at least 5 studies, plus the ones Ris linked to....all find against physical punishment. Find any supporting it yet?

 

[ris]

i suppose what occurs to me is that from the countries in europe [as example] appear to show that effective disciplined parenting can be had without the need for physical corporal punishment. sweden and finland have the oldest laws governing the exclusion of smacking on children and neither society appears to be amok with violent out of control youth. certainly no killings of the nature of columbine that i am aware.

equally i am sure there are societies with strong codes of physical punishment with little youth problems.

the implication would therefore be that the reasons for youth violence and dysfunction have little direct connection to the use of physical corporal punishment, and more to do with the cultural background the children are raised within.

as for the morality of using a physical punishment on a child - if effective parenting can be had without the necessity for striking a child then i am more than happy to take that path. i have not had children of my own but have grown up with 2 younger brothers [10yrs+ my junior] and have a close relationship with a standard naughty 4yo godson; i know precisely how exascerbating children can be and how far off the edge they can push.
perhaps that is the part i question most - that when a child takes you to the point of exascerbation is when you act, in the heat of annoyance, not always the calm of reasoned punishment.