highwayman
New Member
Looks like the idea of symbolism passed you by...
One nation, under who again?
- Thread starter SouthernN'Proud
- Start date
Looks like the idea of symbolism passed you by...
BeardofPants
New Member
yer a nutjob, y'know that? 
spike
New Member
We could decorate the tree with dollar signs if you want symbolism.
chcr
Too cute for words
BlurOfSerenity
New Member
*puts on a large badge which reads "token Pagan"*
that's what i've been saying!
interesting, isn't it, that part of what yule (even traditional, non-neopagan yule, if i'm not mistaken) is all about is that it's when the days start getting longer again... after the longest night, they start getting shorter. it's the birth of the sun. but with jesus, it's the birth of the Son. coincidence?
it's funny when people say "remember the reason for the season!" because it makes me think, "woot, darkness sucks and soon it will be lighter longer!"
because that is the reason for the season. and for things to rest so they can burst forth in unbridled glory in spring.
BlurOfSerenity
New Member
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Wikipedia knows what people, sometimes with agendas, tell it. Ask John Seigenthaler (sp?) sometime.
edit: And many of y'all are missing the point. Probably deliberately. I have yet to hear a Christian advocate that Jesus was born on December 25. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I know all about the actual date. I know why we wrap gifts, decorate trees, all that. None of it is the point. So take your personal agendas and discuss those in another thread if you don't mind. Post 1 of this thread mentioned not one thing about druids or pagans or Caesar or any of that.
Let's try it this way. Christmas, that being observed on December 25 as a Christian holiday, is exactly that. A Christian holiday. I freely admit that it has borrowed and been borrowed from in its current popular incarnation. Hunky dorry, no sweat off my brow, all that. I also freely admit that far too often it does not symbolize what it should even for those within the Christian faith. That I cannot control outside my own self. Just as I stated in the thread about certain "Christians" boycotting the funerals of the murdered Ahmish children, it is a holiday associated with the Christian faith. (I hope we can at least come to consensus on that much...) I don't go ballistic and try to prevent Muslims from celebrating Ramadan (sp?), or Jews from celebrating Hannakah (sp again). I don't observe those holidays, yet I somehow manage to allow those who wish to do so the right to observe them AS THEY CHOOSE. That is quite obviously too much to ask in return though. And in a nation founded on Christian principals (note I did not say endorsing) I find that unacceptable. I give everyone else the right to theirs, but mine is to be suppressed because they don't agree with it. Folks, it's going to bite us within our children's lifetime if not in our own. Christian or Muslim, pagan or agnostic or atheist or Hindu or celery worshiper, these freedoms are too dearly won to abandon in the name of "I'm Offendedness." If an event came here that was clearly intended for the Buddhist faith, and if I chose not to be exposed to things related to that faith, I'd stay my happy ass on the farm that day. Is it so much to ask for the same in kind?
edit: And many of y'all are missing the point. Probably deliberately. I have yet to hear a Christian advocate that Jesus was born on December 25. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I know all about the actual date. I know why we wrap gifts, decorate trees, all that. None of it is the point. So take your personal agendas and discuss those in another thread if you don't mind. Post 1 of this thread mentioned not one thing about druids or pagans or Caesar or any of that.
Let's try it this way. Christmas, that being observed on December 25 as a Christian holiday, is exactly that. A Christian holiday. I freely admit that it has borrowed and been borrowed from in its current popular incarnation. Hunky dorry, no sweat off my brow, all that. I also freely admit that far too often it does not symbolize what it should even for those within the Christian faith. That I cannot control outside my own self. Just as I stated in the thread about certain "Christians" boycotting the funerals of the murdered Ahmish children, it is a holiday associated with the Christian faith. (I hope we can at least come to consensus on that much...) I don't go ballistic and try to prevent Muslims from celebrating Ramadan (sp?), or Jews from celebrating Hannakah (sp again). I don't observe those holidays, yet I somehow manage to allow those who wish to do so the right to observe them AS THEY CHOOSE. That is quite obviously too much to ask in return though. And in a nation founded on Christian principals (note I did not say endorsing) I find that unacceptable. I give everyone else the right to theirs, but mine is to be suppressed because they don't agree with it. Folks, it's going to bite us within our children's lifetime if not in our own. Christian or Muslim, pagan or agnostic or atheist or Hindu or celery worshiper, these freedoms are too dearly won to abandon in the name of "I'm Offendedness." If an event came here that was clearly intended for the Buddhist faith, and if I chose not to be exposed to things related to that faith, I'd stay my happy ass on the farm that day. Is it so much to ask for the same in kind?
BlurOfSerenity
New Member
no, i agree. people taking offense at everything is really getting old. i wish more people would just live and let live, and stop worrying that person A over there is doing something that they don't agree with, and instead just go, "whatever man, i do things you don't like too, it's cool".
when someone says "merry christmas" to me, i go "thank you!! to you as well!" because that is the nice thing to do. that is common ettiquet, at least, i'd suppose so.
likewise, when people put ugly spraypainted plastic nativity scenes in their yard, aside from the fact that i don't think the creche is best depicted in mass produced, garish, electrified plastic, i take no exception. i don't wish they'd stop. and if i did hate it, i'd probably just look across the street at that nice tree over there.
people is too damn sensitive. i getcher point on that. if someone doesn't like something like that, they probably care a bit too much.
when someone says "merry christmas" to me, i go "thank you!! to you as well!" because that is the nice thing to do. that is common ettiquet, at least, i'd suppose so.
likewise, when people put ugly spraypainted plastic nativity scenes in their yard, aside from the fact that i don't think the creche is best depicted in mass produced, garish, electrified plastic, i take no exception. i don't wish they'd stop. and if i did hate it, i'd probably just look across the street at that nice tree over there.
people is too damn sensitive. i getcher point on that. if someone doesn't like something like that, they probably care a bit too much.
Bigot.
There is plenty of evidence that Jesus did exist apart from the Bible. And there are many theories as to when Jesus was actually born, but none are definite.
Constantine did not invent Christmas. In fact, the earliest evidence of the feast goes back to Egypt around AD 200 - about 70 years before Constantine was even born. Also, Christmas does not fall on the Saturnalia pagan holiday as some erroneously claim (I'm not saying you are, but I just thought I should make a note of it). That pagan holiday actually takes place before Christmas. But even if a Christian holiday happens to coincide with a pagan one does that inherently make the Christian holiday a pagan one? I know you and your wife took rings at your wedding, does that mean you had a pagan wedding since that originated as a pagan practice?
Christmas does fall on the pagan Sol Invictus (Birth of the Unconquered Sun) holiday. Although, throughout the Roman Empire that pagan holiday was celebrated either on December 25 (according to the Julian Calendar) or on January 6 (according to the Egyptian calendar).
However, chcr, what you fail to realize and many others is that Christmas was anti-pagan in origin. Despite that some scholars believe that December 25 is roughly the right date, December 25 was, in part, set to celebrate Christ's birth and to provide an alternative to the pagan holiday. December 25 has symbolic meaning. That date was special to the worshipers of the sun god. The Catholic Church was trying to win converts to worship the Son of God. Also, this was the time of winter solstice, which marked the shortest day of the year. Everyday after that more light would enter so the days would be longer. The Christians worshiped the unconquered Son of God who is and brings the true light to the world. Christmas critiques and rejects the pagan holiday. Although we may never know the true date to celebrate Christ's birth, the December 25 date fits just fine.
Constantine never made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire either. You must be referring to the Edict of Milan. That edict was known as the edict of tolerance. It granted Christians and everyone else freedom in the exercise of religion - i.e., it legalized Christianity. He did, however, end up favoring Christianity.
Christ's birth date is unknown and has been speculated throughout the ages. The notion that he was born on December 25 was put forth before Constantine.
http://www.otcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21008
2minkey
bootlicker
so the fuck what?
I have and I do not know what you are getting at.
Oh, and thanks for the judeo-christian propaganda lesson. I've never heard any of it before.
It's not propaganda. It's just that...
I'd rather be historically accurate than a fallacious revisionist.
When the Ole Possum signed onto this website, he was diligent about reading the rules, regulations, etc.. Even checked and double checked, the part where it says this section contains volitile opinions, something not all bad as sometimes things need to be said that are not popular, border on or outrightly disavow the term "politically correct".
The Ole Possum' first impressions were with the seemingly intelligent conversation, back and forth banter and insight offered by most posters.
All before seeing the vulgarities used by Gonz and 2Minkey, who are not alone as there are others who, for some reason, have apparently found personal gratification with the use of vulgarities, inappropriate slang or profanity, thereby reducing themselves from a platform of reasonable discussion to a lower standard than us swamp creatures and road kill normally experience.
The Ole Possum knows and understands there is such a thing as freedom of speech, but this is not about freedom of speech. It is about observing what appeared to be reasonable discourse between humans who were thought capable of decent expression and intelligent debate without the use of colorful language.
And it makes the Ole Possum wonder, why is it necessary ????? Most of us got the point without the added invectives and colorful adjectives. Most recognize debate is held daily, beginning to end, without the use of vulgar, profane or disrespectful language.
Meantime, the Ole Possum will continue to hang in the trees by his tail, watching, listening and evaluating but please, continue with the dialogue with which you are most comfortable. It says volumes about you as a person.
The Ole Possum will watch, read and listen while others may now vent their wrath.
The Ole Possum' first impressions were with the seemingly intelligent conversation, back and forth banter and insight offered by most posters.
All before seeing the vulgarities used by Gonz and 2Minkey, who are not alone as there are others who, for some reason, have apparently found personal gratification with the use of vulgarities, inappropriate slang or profanity, thereby reducing themselves from a platform of reasonable discussion to a lower standard than us swamp creatures and road kill normally experience.
The Ole Possum knows and understands there is such a thing as freedom of speech, but this is not about freedom of speech. It is about observing what appeared to be reasonable discourse between humans who were thought capable of decent expression and intelligent debate without the use of colorful language.
And it makes the Ole Possum wonder, why is it necessary ????? Most of us got the point without the added invectives and colorful adjectives. Most recognize debate is held daily, beginning to end, without the use of vulgar, profane or disrespectful language.
Meantime, the Ole Possum will continue to hang in the trees by his tail, watching, listening and evaluating but please, continue with the dialogue with which you are most comfortable. It says volumes about you as a person.
The Ole Possum will watch, read and listen while others may now vent their wrath.
chcr
Too cute for words
1. It does not and never has meant non or anti-christian. Actually, the original meaning was something like "bumpkin." It came to be identified as non or anti-christian because, until the late middle ages, christanity was a religion of the middle and upper class, the well educated and gentrified. Farmers and serfs and such were consider lower class or "pagan."
2. All history is revisionist. It's the nature of history to be revisionist. Mine as well as yours. It's all propaganda, written to show the side that comes out ahead in the best possible light. As such, it seems foolish to me to accept things that make no sense out of hand because "history says so."
You're right, Constantine didn't invent Christmas, exactly, he just brought about the circumstances under which it was codified. Who invented the light bulb? ...the flush toilet?3. Re your "evidence," do you even notice that, with the possible exception of Philo, all of these sources date from decades after the supposed death of Jesus. In other words hearsay, all no doubt directly related to the bible or the original works from which it was taken.
I remain unconvinced and highly skeptical, if you can imagine that.