Saturdays Vote

[Gonz]

 

[freako104]

You are rolling your eyes why? I merely pointed out that stats have been and can easily be manipulated. Even in an unbiased situation they are usually off by a little. And what in this world doesnt have a bias?

 

[Gonz]

Comparing the leap of Iraq to a Democratic government to Hussein is assinine.

 

[freako104]

Comparing the leap of Iraq to a Democratic government to Hussein is assinine.

That wasnt a democracy. It was a dictatorship. The people had no rights, he made all the decisions. In a democracy the people have the rights. As I said he rigged the election.

 

[samcurry]

well i guess if you consider sadaam winning an election. A dictator doesnt need an election and even if they do who is gonna vote against him?
Lets see, the ones who did suffered under a mass genocide. or were killed in some other horrific way. now thats not a rigged election is it?

 

[freako104]

Or those that did got a bullet in the brain from one of Saddams sons.

 

[MrBishop]

I am a bit confused here Marc. By not letting the laymen(people) vote wouldnt that be impeding on their rights which is the antithesis of what a democracy is (though America itself isnt fully a democracy, it is a Constitutional Republic) and therefore not what the government here wants(or at least is stating) I do agree with the idea of letting the people approve it before it is executed.

The point is that Most constitutions are not voted on, nor were they voted on ever. The American, Canadian, Indian, British etc etc... are fine examples of working constitutions which the laymen never saw or heard of until the ink was well and dry. Not to say that this was the best way of ensuring a democracy, but certainly quicker.

Letting the Iraquis vote on this constitution was more of an excercise in PR than one in Democracy. I get the feeling that if the constitution had been passed without the public vote, that people would claim that it had been written by 'outside parties' with a similar bias.

Funny how Iraq is becomming more democratic than most of Europe and the Americas

 

[Gato_Solo]

The fact you keep sticking to this ridiculous premise means that you don't care if the vote was rigged. It's easier for you to whine, moan, and bitch about me not providing a solution than to actually discuss the issue. You're just burying your head in the sand trying to ignore it.

And the fact that you keep ignoring the question proves even more about you.

 

[Leslie]

It's amazing how you can post in a thread for 4 pages and say absolutely nothing at all.

 

[Gato_Solo]

It's amazing how you can post in a thread for 4 pages and say absolutely nothing at all.

I've said quite a bit. We're stuck at this point because he doesn't have an answer to the important question. That's the biggest problem on the planet. Yes...there are problems, and, yes, you can point those out, but what are you going to actually do to fix the problem. That's all I'm asking, and there are those who believe that the solution is less important than the identification. You can see where this whole thing started deteriorating, and you can see where I'm coming from now.

 

[chcr]

The solution is more important than the problem, Gato. The problem is that it seems like the only solution American leaders find acceptable is "Pax Americana." Many Americans and pretty much all non-Americans feel this is an unacceptable solution, whether or not they currently have a better one. It's the point Bennett was trying to make before the kneejerk reactions. There are solutions that will work that are never the less unacceptable. Of course, you may notice that we in America very rarely hear any solutions from outside America. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Gato_Solo]

The solution is more important than the problem, Gato. The problem is that it seems like the only solution American leaders find acceptable is "Pax Americana." Many Americans and pretty much all non-Americans feel this is an unacceptable solution, whether or not they currently have a better one. It's the point Bennett was trying to make before the kneejerk reactions. There are solutions that will work that are never the less unacceptable. Of course, you may notice that we in America very rarely hear any solutions from outside America. Why do you suppose that is?

Just to get the meat of this...

1. When I was addressing the general populace here...who wouldn't grace me with their ideas for fixing the problem, all I got in return was blank stares and hostility. When I pushed a bit harder, I was placed on ignore because, and I'll put this one in quotes...

Bullshit,I look at what success has brought in Afghanistan and I'm not alllowed to point out Iraqi elections aren't going to mean a damn thing,absolute bullshit.I don't have all the answers ,but then I don't start the threads saying "look what successes we've done" all I do is try to make them prove what they are saying and when they can't ,they come up with drivel like yours.

*ignore

and, more importantly, this one...

Look, you're premise is ridiculous. You've been told that by several people now as well as me but you still keep asking me for a solution. I'm not playing this stupid game if you have nothing else to say than "what's your solution" when someone posts news you don't want to hear.

2. I don't stick to just US news sites, so that's not exactly fair. When I see a solution to a current problem, I post it...Most intelligent people get their news from more than one site...and more than one country.

 

[chcr]

2. I don't stick to just US news sites, so that's not exactly fair. When I see a solution to a current problem, I post it...Most intelligent people get their news from more than one site...and more than one country.

Now you know as well as I that a great many people on the forum get their news from one or two sites. I agree that it's important to consider news from other countries. I also think it's important to consider news from other cultures. A great many people in the world have a very different take on current events than the west (I'm sure you understand this). The point I was trying to make is that not having another solution to put forth does not prevent one from understanding when a given solution is wrong or unworkable. "Do something, even if it's wrong" never works. History shows that. I know that you take a wider view than most, but I think in this case you're letting personalities overrule intellect.

Just an opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Gato_Solo]

The point I was trying to make is that not having another solution to put forth does not prevent one from understanding when a given solution is wrong or unworkable.

That's not what I meant. What I'm saying is that, if you see something like the rigged vote as a problem, why not give us a solution? It's almost as if the poster of said problem doesn't know that the rest of us also see it as a problem, but I don't see an alternative, so he should give one, instead of harping on something we already know. I didn't explain that all the way out, because I assumed that the complainers would already know that. They decided that it was a personal attack, even though it wasn't. It's like I said earlier...You see a pile of crap on the ground. You can ignore it, complain about it, or clean it up/dispose of it properly.

 

[MrBishop]

1. When I was addressing the general populace here...who wouldn't grace me with their ideas for fixing the problem, all I got in return was blank stares and hostility. When I pushed a bit harder, I was placed on ignore because...

Not everyone was without comment on the question/problem/solution. The thread degraded into a fight about who said what and why it was BS etc etc ad nauseum. It's practically par for the course.

You 'pushing harder' along with people getting defensive is part of the reason that these threads go from debate to debacle.

I hate to say it, but there are a few members who enjoy the incindiary nature of OTC-debate rather than the meat of it.

 

[chcr]

Not everyone was without comment on the question/problem/solution. The thread degraded into a fight about who said what and why it was BS etc etc ad nauseum. It's practically par for the course.

Where??????

 

[MrBishop]

here...mostly

 

[flavio]

That's not what I meant. What I'm saying is that, if you see something like the rigged vote as a problem, why not give us a solution? It's almost as if the poster of said problem doesn't know that the rest of us also see it as a problem, but I don't see an alternative, so he should give one, instead of harping on something we already know. I didn't explain that all the way out, because I assumed that the complainers would already know that. They decided that it was a personal attack, even though it wasn't. It's like I said earlier...You see a pile of crap on the ground. You can ignore it, complain about it, or clean it up/dispose of it properly.

A good number of people have now tried to point out where you've gone wrong with this insistence on a solution and i don't know how many different ways it can be said.

The facts are:

1. nobody here is bound by your rule of not posting about any problems unless they also have a solution.

2. In many cases it is far better to be aware of a problem than not. Even if a solution is not immediately obvious.

3. By continuing to try to force your own faulty premise on others this thread has degraded into a bunch of people trying to deal with you repeating it over and over. Whether or not you can see that it's faulty at this point has no effect on fact #1.

I'm more than done going over this with you.

By the way I would get the guy who left the pile of crap to clean up his own mess.

 

[Gato_Solo]

A good number of people have now tried to point out where you've gone wrong with this insistence on a solution and i don't know how many different ways it can be said.

The facts are:

1. nobody here is bound by your rule of not posting about any problems unless they also have a solution.

Never said anybody was. However...you have no solution, or you would've posted it by now, thus making your arguments nothing more than hot air and hypocrisy.

2. In many cases it is far better to be aware of a problem than not. Even if a solution is not immediately obvious.

So pointing and complaining is, according to you, more important than solving the problem? Once again...you have no solution, and you don't have the ability to come up with one, so by changing the focus of the argument to be just to post a problem, you relieve yourself from any burden that requires a fix.

"Look...his gas tank is leaking, and there's a fire nearby. Time to go..."

3. By continuing to try to force your own faulty premise on others this thread has degraded into a bunch of people trying to deal with you repeating it over and over. Whether or not you can see that it's faulty at this point has no effect on fact #1.

I'm more than done going over this with you.

So now we all know that you are part of the problem because you don't want it fixed. You just want something to complain and whine about to make yourself feel as though you're actually doing something.

By the way I would get the guy who left the pile of crap to clean up his own mess.

So you do have solutions for easy problems, but anything requiring a bit of work is beyond you. That is also nice to know...

 

[MrBishop]

In all cases...it's better to define the problem/issue as thoroughly as possible before even beginning to look for a solution. This, followed by brainstorming, trimming, potential and cost/time analysis will often get you a better answer than what anyone could've come up with at the onset.


Takes more time than just shooting off a 'solution', but less time than defending that 'solution' against all-comers, eh?