Saw a stupid bumper sticker today....

how does that prove right or wrongness?

homosexuality has been observed in other parts of nature, just because something can't reproduce doesn't make it wrong.

if so then the thousands of people who are born infertile are also wrong.
 
Oh we should give it up already ris, b. Some folks just refuse to acknowlege scientific facts. there is no arguing with them. I could roll out all kinds of documented studies, and it wouldn't help the gay guy getting denied a job or an apartment or even getting beaten in a dark alley. I am sorry to say it, but it's a useless fight. All we can do is teach our own children to tolerate others, and hope this attitude one day prevails. It wasn't long ago when the majority of white folks saw blacks as "niggers" and less than human, and that has gotten better with time. I expect this will as well, but it's not gonna change with this generation, but with ones to come.
 
Unfortunately, , the comparisons you make on the nuances of discrimination fall on deaf ears to me. The reasons behind my claim are simple...Nobody can discriminate against your being gay until you tell them you are gay. Period. You are not the victim of discrimination until you choose to be discriminated against. Pretty clear-cut to me. While you can state til you are blue in the face about discrimination, nobody knows, or probably cares, until you put yourself out for *ahem* such discrimination, thus, when you are the victim of discrimination, you, yourself, have caused your own problem. I've always been aware that gay people exist, and I know that gay people have been tortured and/or killed for their orientation (which explains why most gays, until recently, were in the closet), so most, if not all homosexuals, hid their orientation. I cannot hide my skin. My genetic make-up is out there for all to see. Most people of my genetic background are the same way. Some black folks in the days after the civil war until the late 50's could effectively hide their race because of their lighter complexion, but the vast majority were, and in some cases still are, treated as an underclass. In some way I am quite sure you can figure out the rest on your own, but, as for the rest who try to 'preach' to me and tell me how I need a change of attitude, you need to check yours first. I only have one rule for dealing with anybody when it comes to work...'Shut up and do your job.' Whining about how you are discriminated against makes you nothing but a target for derision and the very discrimination you claim to be a victim of in the first place. I refuse to be such a victim, even though I know that these things do still occur. I get on with my life, and I put that person, or those persons, in the exact light that they should be in...an unimportant, and decidedly unfriendly light.
 
Unfortunately, , the comparisons you make on the nuances of discrimination fall on deaf ears to me.
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So true...

The reasons behind my claim are simple...Nobody can discriminate against your being gay until you tell them you are gay. Period. You are not the victim of discrimination until you choose to be discriminated against. Pretty clear-cut to me.
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That is the most ridiculous use of logic. If nobody knew I was gay, I still wouldn't be allowed to have a legal marriage ceremony. I still wouldn't be allowed to adopt. If either my boyfriend or myself were in some kind of serious accident and were in the hospital we wouldn't be treated as family of the injured. It's not acceptable for us to teach at schools.

There are so many situations where the issue of sexuality does come up that the only way for me to hide who I am is to lie. And when the truth does come out, not only am I a liar, but I'd be a lying faggot. As long as sexuality is an issue, that's how those who have a problem with gay people are going to see it.

While you can state til you are blue in the face about discrimination, nobody knows, or probably cares, until you put yourself out for *ahem* such discrimination, thus, when you are the victim of discrimination, you, yourself, have caused your own problem.
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Again you're telling me that I should keep my mouth shut, be happy that the world rejects me based solely on the fact that I'm gay and deal with it.

And again I say I will not shut up and I will not accept the inequalities you would heap upon me simply because I'm gay.

I cannot hide my skin. My genetic make-up is out there for all to see. Most people of my genetic background are the same way.
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So what? Stay indoors. Order what you need off the net, have the pizza man leave your food on the doorstep and hide inside your house the rest of your life.

Quit whining that your race won't allow you to hide from those that would oppress you. I choose to fight. I choose to be out because I want to be as free and equal to enjoy my time on this planet as everybody else.

I only have one rule for dealing with anybody when it comes to work...'Shut up and do your job.'
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What does this have to do with anything? I work, I pay my taxes, I vote. I do everything a good American is supposed to do, and everything I feel a good Human is supposed to do. So why can't I have what goes along with that? Why can't I have the protection of a government I pay to support? Why can't I have the same spouse benefits my job gives to married straight couples? I do the same work, I help support that company's abilities to do business and make money.

Whining about how you are discriminated against makes you nothing but a target for derision and the very discrimination you claim to be a victim of in the first place.
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Nice use of circular reasoning. Do you realize that what you're saying is that if people didn't whine about discrimination it would go away? Well let's all consider the possibility of that happening.

And what's whining? For somebody to keep saying, "Hey this is wrong let's fix it?"

If people quit saying they were being discriminated against, discrimination wouldn't go away, it would just be accepted as the norm. That's not a fix.

I refuse to be such a victim, even though I know that these things do still occur. I get on with my life, and I put that person, or those persons, in the exact light that they should be in...an unimportant, and decidedly unfriendly light.
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Do you read what you post? Do you realize that this very statement contradicts itself?

In the beginning you are stating that you refuse to make yourself a victim by keeping to yourself and moving on and in the same sentence you state that you make sure you put those persons responsible in an unimportant and decidedly unfriendly light.

You can't do both. You can't ignore something and then seek revenge.

 
I have only one thing to comment about at this time.

A gay pride parade IS shoving your sexuality in people's faces. :p
 
Other's say being Canadian is not ok. That is like saying "raping people is ok", but it's only some sick bastards opinion, not fact.

I am not Canadian, and am against Canadian's because I believe it is morally and biblically wrong, as well as just plain ol' disgusting. I however don't really mind Canadian people as long as they are not prancing around in public to draw attention to the fact that they are Canadian. An example would be the Canadian pride parades in Toronto. That really pisses me off when I see them all dancing around, making a big huge deal about how Canadian they are. You don't see any not-Canadina pride parades do you? I haven't.

The bottom line is, if you wanna be Canadian, you go right ahead. Your choice. But don't go shoving your Canadian lifestyle in my face and in the faces of people's kids.

P.S. Canadian people are going to hell.
 
There's an awful lot of assholes in here shoving their religious beliefs in peoples faces worrying about other people's private lives.

Keep your religious beliefs to yourself. I could care less how people thousands of years ago liked to live. They didn't take baths very often either, doesn't mean I'm not going to shower in the morning.
 
For right now, I'm ignoring everyone but because he's the only person actually debating instead of fomenting anger...

The very fact which makes discrimination discrimination is KNOWING of and ACTING upon a difference. People who do not know cannot act. As for the religious lament...form your own church. Simple. Anything else is trying to force others to do your will. Accept me, or else is a bad situation to be in with religion.
If you wish to fight for your cause, then so-be-it, but don't try to equate it with someone elses struggle. If you can't, or won't, make that step, then your cause is doomed to fail. Stand, or fall, on your own merits. Once that happens, then your struggle will gain my respect.
 
Originally posted by flavio
Other's say being Canadian is not ok. That is like saying "raping people is ok", but it's only some sick bastards opinion, not fact.

I am not Canadian, and am against Canadian's because I believe it is morally and biblically wrong, as well as just plain ol' disgusting. I however don't really mind Canadian people as long as they are not prancing around in public to draw attention to the fact that they are Canadian. An example would be the Canadian pride parades in Toronto. That really pisses me off when I see them all dancing around, making a big huge deal about how Canadian they are. You don't see any not-Canadina pride parades do you? I haven't.

The bottom line is, if you wanna be Canadian, you go right ahead. Your choice. But don't go shoving your Canadian lifestyle in my face and in the faces of people's kids.

P.S. Canadian people are going to hell.
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There is nothing wrong with being Canadian... it's just a title you get for living somewhere, it isn't a lifestyle nor is it any action that could be wrong. So don't go using that as some stupid way of saying that discriminating against gays is the same as someone discriminating against Canadians.

Some people believe being gay is okay, some believe it is not okay. People have their own beliefs and they always will. The issue of homosexuality is an argument that will never end. There isn't a chance that in any of our lifetimes that gays will be accepted as normal people by everyone and be treated equally. Peraps someday in the future, but in the meantime, you live your life, and I'll live mine. If you want to fight for equal rights in the court of law, you go right ahead.

I really don't care if people are gay or not, but they shouldn't be drawing attention to themselves simply because they are homosexuals. The gay pride parade is the only thing I have a problem with gay people doing in public. I don't care if two guys hold hands, but they shouldn't make out in public, just as straight couples shouldn't either.
 
For right now, I'm ignoring everyone but ...
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I'm not sure, is this a good thing? :D

The very fact which makes discrimination discrimination is KNOWING of and ACTING upon a difference. People who do not know cannot act.
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I understand what you're saying. That's not the point I'm arguing.

I'm not worried about walking through the mall and having to deal with somebody yelling out faggot, or fudge packer, or half the stuff Monsieur DeLarge put in his post. I can take care of myself.

Just yesterday I had a guy pull up beside me and stick his hand all limp wristed out the window at me. I blew him a kiss. Guess who was more upset?

What bothers me is there are laws that prevent gays from having the same rights as straight people.

I'm talking about the right to get married, the right to company benefits for me and my husband, and the ability to adopt a child if I want. I don't want there to be laws that prevent me from being able to do something just because I'm gay.

As long as those laws exist, the type of discrimination I'm worried about will exist as well.

I don't want special treatment because I'm gay, just equal treatment because I'm human.

I don't want a company to be forced to hire me because I'm gay. However, I don't feel a company should be able to not hire me for the same reason.

As for the religious lament...form your own church. Simple. Anything else is trying to force others to do your will.
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Come on Gato, how many times do we have to go over this point? I do have my own religion. As I've stated at least two times before, it's more a philosophy then a religion.

Just so you know, because of your own constant prodding, I've actually started to write it down.

If you wish to fight for your cause, then so-be-it, but don't try to equate it with someone else's struggle. If you can't, or won't, make that step, then your cause is doomed to fail. Stand, or fall, on your own merits. Once that happens, then your struggle will gain my respect.
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I still don't understand this. Would you please expand on your argument? Why can't I equate this struggle with the struggles of those in the past?

And please, don't use the "you can hide your sexuality but I can't hide my race" routine.

It's been acceptable to equate struggles for equality between the races with struggles for equality between religious groups and it's easy enough to hide your religious beliefs from people.

Any time a group is struggling against a different group one or both tries to equate their situation with something that happened in the past. It's about precedent. You're trying to get people to identify with something that has already happened so that they might be able to understand your point of view.

So why, all of a sudden, is it unacceptable for me to say that discrimination against gays is the same as discrimination against peoples of different races, religions, or nationalities?

You can't stand or fall on your own merits when you're being judged by somebody elses.

People = People. We should all be treated as such.

 
Somewhere, over the rainbow...

...Empress RuPaul sits upon her dark, but highly fashionable, throne.

In walks Darth O'Donnel.

"Empress RuPaul, we have a communication from the rebel 'straights'."

"Yes my child, what is it?"

"They say if we let them...", Darth O'Donnel seems nervous. "They say if we let them have a parade they'll leave us alone."

"A parade?!?" Shouts Empress RuPaul. She stands and walks gracefully towards Darth O'Donnel despite being a man in a dress wearing 5" heels.

"Hmm, a parade...I wonder..." Thinking, Empress RuPaul walks around her retro 60's style throne room and sits upon her leather Armani couch.

"Tell them yes," she says. "But ask if we can design the floats. It'll be fabulous."

 
Hey Gato,

I came up with a group that more closely resembles the fight for gay rights.

Women's Suffrage. It was a battle between the sexes. And women can, and do (sometimes) hide their sex in order to do things they were not allowed to do.

What'cha think?

 
not all racism is based on visible things. in some parts of wales you can be discrimated for being english, and noone knows until you open your mouth there either, and yet they discriminate against you before you even do that sometimes.
 
[by b] "I would also appreciate it if you would refrain from the less than flattering terms you use to refer to homosexuals....I've done my best as the one gay person in this fight to keep it clean and not slump to referring to straight people by any derogatory euphemisms."
Personally, I'd love it if you came out with those euphemisms - it would demonstrate some light-heartedness that too many advocates of political correctness seem to lack. If you can't detect any humour in 'jobby wheecher', 'keg-pipe cosmonaut' or 'riding the northern line' (neither of which I'd heard of until my gay work colleague helped me compile the post), then you must be living a really grim-faced life.

[by ris] "Homosexuality has been observed in other parts of nature."
True, but then so has rape and incest - read Bruce Bagehmil's 'Biological Exhuberance' (St. Martin's Press, 1999) for more details. The mere existence of such behaviour in the animal kingdom does not automatically mandate that it's morally acceptable in humans; we have to make up our own minds whether it's right or wrong, and personally I'd say that the current situation - that two out of the three are illegal - is a sensible judgement.

[by Gato_solo] "Nobody can discriminate against your being gay until you tell them you are gay."
I'm not saying you should be obliged to hide your sexuality to avoid being hunted like dogs, but there remains the conflict of demanding equality in all walks of life while continuing to segregate yourselves voluntarily in events of your choosing (e.g. the parades and Gay Olympics I mentioned earlier).

[by b] "There are so many situations where the issue of sexuality does come up that the only way for me to hide who I am is to lie."
Offhand, I can't think of any. Do you have examples?

[by b] "I'm not worried about walking through the mall and having to deal with somebody yelling out faggot, or fudge packer, or half the stuff Monsieur DeLarge put in his post. I can take care of myself."
Well, now that I've read it over again, I'll admit that I used 'fag', which I'd say counts as derogatory. The rest were quite obviously a laugh, as I mentioned at the start of this post, so chill out. You'll be a lot closer to general acceptance when you learn to have a giggle at your own expense, and no-one likes a sourpuss.

[by b] "Just yesterday I had a guy pull up beside me and stick his hand all limp wristed out the window at me. I blew him a kiss. Guess who was more upset?"
Fine - there you go. Someone gives you stick, you give him some back. If he tries to beat you up, you can get him on assault charges. At no point do you need gay-specific laws to protect yourself. Maybe that's the real reason I roll my eyes at gay rights activism; the number of lawyers it causes.....

[by b] "What bothers me is there are laws that prevent gays from having the same rights as straight people.....I'm talking about the right to get married, the right to company benefits for me and my husband, and the ability to adopt a child if I want. I don't want there to be laws that prevent me from being able to do something just because I'm gay."
Marriage is a religious sacrament, so I think bible-bashers and God-botherers (see, I have euphemisms for everyone) should be the ones to decide yay or nay, and the Christian God says it just ain't right. I don't think that you should be able to over-ride their religious rights just to give you gay rights, so if you want a white wedding in a lovely chapel, I say tough luck. Go to a Registry Office.
I also think that as long as kids get the crap beaten out of them in the playground because two guys turned up to the PTA meeting the night before, there should be a big question mark over gay adoptions. This is a situation where your lifestyle choice can have a dramatic effect on a third party, and it'd be disingenuous of you to deny that.

MDL


PS Still haven't heard your opinion on the Gay Olympics, b - you seemed to skip over that.

PPS there's also backdoor butcher, chutney ferret, chocolate speedway racer, marmite miner, picking up twigs in the springtime, sphincter sabatour, uphill gardener. I'd say all of them are fairly hilarious and harmless, but that's just me.
 
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