Separation of Church/State

[freako104]

This is not about if there is one but do you think there should be one? I know I dont have too many options but why not say what you think. I apologise if your thought isnt in my poll.



I think there should be one. Neither should really have anything to do wiht each other. No endorsments of Polytheism nor of monotheism.

 

[chcr]

It should go without saying, but it doesn't. You know me, I think there should be a separation of people and religion.

 

[Gonz]

I can't answer until I see a proposal. This subject is huge in it's potential.

 

[freako104]

what do you mean by a proposal? It is not about solving the problem so much as it is asking what it is? what is your take on it.

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

It would be wonderful to live in a place where there was no mention of some higher being on the money or in the pledge of allegiance. Where you didn't trip over religious displays in government buildings (ALL OF THEM, btw, not just Christian). It will never happen in the US.

 

[Gonz]

Why shouldn't it happen? Isn't religion a massive part of our history, both humakind as well as American heritage? It needs to be seperate from the law but not necessarily from the culture.

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

I'm not talking about the culture (which I'm still looking for, btw ), I'm talking about government buildings, legal tender, anything that is operated or run by the government including schools.

Feel free to proselytize in your parochial school, but don't expect to be subsidized for it. Feel free to erect a massive crucifix on your front lawn, but keep your religious symbols out of City Hall.

 

[Gonz]

Start a petition to change the Constitution. See what the majority of the people want.

As far as looking for culture, quit wishing you were French & enjoy the much more civilized culture we have. Hamburgers, beer & dirtbikes make for better family time than "Kwa sonts", 70 year old wine & some stupid ballet.

 

[freako104]

ech culture is different in what is considered aesthically beautiful. So America does have a culture jsut maybe the one you arent looking for

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

Start a petition to change the Constitution. See what the majority of the people want.

What would be the point of that? why would I want to waste my time in a futile endeavor? did you miss this part of my post?

It will never happen in the US.

freako wasn't asking whether or not we had a "separation of church and state," he was asking how we felt about it. As much as I long for that elusive "separation" I'm all too aware of the fact that this country will NEVER observe it.

As far as looking for culture, quit wishing you were French & enjoy the much more civilized culture we have. Hamburgers, beer & dirtbikes make for better family time than "Kwa sonts", 70 year old wine & some stupid ballet.

I have NO idea what makes you think I wish I was French. I'm perfectly happy being a Ukrainian who had the bad luck to be born in the US.

And the French are hardly the solitary bearers of culture. As freako said (I think), there are many cultures out there, all good. There are aspects to American culture I appreciate, jazz and Abstract Expressionism spring to mind. As soon as I can think of something else besides the consumer culture of shopping malls, fast food, large cars and the disproportionate consumption of natural resources, I'll let you know.

 

[AlphaTroll]

Feel free to erect a massive crucifix on your front lawn

But not in Mississippi.......they might reckon you to be of the KKK orientation

 

[Gato_Solo]

What would be the point of that? why would I want to waste my time in a futile endeavor? did you miss this part of my post?



freako wasn't asking whether or not we had a "separation of church and state," he was asking how we felt about it. As much as I long for that elusive "separation" I'm all too aware of the fact that this country will NEVER observe it.



I have NO idea what makes you think I wish I was French. I'm perfectly happy being a Ukrainian who had the bad luck to be born in the US.

And the French are hardly the solitary bearers of culture. As freako said (I think), there are many cultures out there, all good. There are aspects to American culture I appreciate, jazz and Abstract Expressionism spring to mind. As soon as I can think of something else besides the consumer culture of shopping malls, fast food, large cars and the disproportionate consumption of natural resources, I'll let you know.

The Ukraine has a state religion... It was suppressed under communist rule, but now has made a 'come-back' as it were.

If people want to believe in a higher being (I do, BTW), then that is their business, and their right. It's also their right to talk to you about it, unless you tell them otherwise. It's also your right to belive that there is no higher being, and your right to talk to them about it, unless you are told otherwise.
That said, I'll add this...

If you don't believe in a higher being, then why does any of this bother you?

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

I don't like seeing "In God We Trust" on the money I, as a citizen, earn and use. I don't believe in any "god," so I am not included in that phrase. I also dislike the addition of "one Nation under God" made in the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50s I believe (which I never utter, btw, I just keep silent at that part) . These two items amount to a state-sponsored religion, imo, and only add to the increasing feeling of exclusion I'm getting here.

I have no problem with people practicing their wisdom tradition. As far as a "state religion" in Ukraine, I don't see what that has to do with the issue of the non-existant separation of church and state in this country. I've traveled there, and expect to visit again some day. I may even more there one day. The come-back is something I've heard about, but all the friends I have there (half a dozen or so that I continue to correspond with) see it as behaviour exhibited by the less-educated. Their phrase, btw, not mine.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I don't like seeing "In God We Trust" on the money I, as a citizen, earn and use. I don't believe in any "god," so I am not included in that phrase. I also dislike the addition of "one Nation under God" made in the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50s I believe (which I never utter, btw, I just keep silent at that part) . These two items amount to a state-sponsored religion, imo, and only add to the increasing feeling of exclusion I'm getting here.

I have no problem with people practicing their wisdom tradition. As far as a "state religion" in Ukraine, I don't see what that has to do with the issue of the non-existant separation of church and state in this country. I've traveled there, and expect to visit again some day. I may even more there one day. The come-back is something I've heard about, but all the friends I have there (half a dozen or so that I continue to correspond with) see it as behaviour exhibited by the less-educated. Their phrase, btw, not mine.

You missed the point...If you do not believe in God, then why does that word affect you? You don't believe in Santa, but I'm sure you don't mind seeing him everywhere on Christmas (whoops, sorry, X-mas). What's the difference? If you don't believe, then you don't believe. Seeing the word anywhere should have no effect on you whatsoever...

 

[MrBishop]

There should be a seperation between church and state but, as Ms.Ann stated, there is unlikely to ever be. The main reason for this, IMHO, is that state is peopled by individuals who hold religious beliefs (or not) and allow their own religious beliefs to taint their decisions.

Take the death penalty, as an example. Why is the death penalty not used everywhere? Some would say that it's because 'if we kill the killer, we're no better than s/he is' and in a way, they're right...but the better answer would be 'because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill", and the lawmakers are predominantly Christian.

So long as there is a predominant religion in any country, that religion will affect the upholding, maintenance, change of, or removal of laws and policy of the ruling GVT.

So...the church affects GVT...to a point. The GVT doesn't have a whole lot of power over religion though, thanks in part to the 'freedom of religion'.

 

[freako104]

The Ukraine has a state religion... It was suppressed under communist rule, but now has made a 'come-back' as it were.

If people want to believe in a higher being (I do, BTW), then that is their business, and their right. It's also their right to talk to you about it, unless you tell them otherwise. It's also your right to belive that there is no higher being, and your right to talk to them about it, unless you are told otherwise.
That said, I'll add this...

If you don't believe in a higher being, then why does any of this bother you?

Like Natalie, I do not like it as it excludes those who dont believe I feel. and it is an endorsment of a religion. I feel your life is your life but keep it to you dont cram it down my throat

 

[Gonz]

and only add to the increasing feeling of exclusion I'm getting here

There you go. Work on that part. I, a questioning non-believer, do not feel pressure to participate in religion. Whenever someone prays, I'll silently allow them. In God We Trust needs part 2, all other pay cash. I do not understand the malevolence that so many feel. As long as religion is not the basis for our laws & our collective tax money isn't purchasing goods to support a religion, then why is it bad? It is part of our heritage.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Like Natalie, I do not like it as it excludes those who dont believe I feel. and it is an endorsment of a religion. I feel your life is your life but keep it to you dont cram it down my throat

How can you be excluded from something you don't even believe in???

 

[chcr]

If you don't believe in a higher being, then why does any of this bother you?

It bothers me when government tries to pass laws based on religious beliefs or gives preferential treatment to religious organizations. Other than that, I don't really care what anyone else believes. I also don't care about the religious displays in government buildings. It means nothing to me. I don't know a single person of any Abrahamic faith who follows the ten commandments, but let them put them up in the courthouse if it makes them feel better. As I say, they don't care (and they're the ones who purport to believe in them), why should I? When I see "In God We Trust" on money, I simply think "So you do."

 

[freako104]

How can you be excluded from something you don't even believe in???

not from the religion mate. from the country. It is like anyone who doesnt believe isnt American to me. a bit extreme I know but thats how I feel. look at teh currency In God We Trust. kind of a broad statement considering we have atheists,agnostics,pagans,Christians,Muslims and other religions not mentioned.