Shock at N Korean nuclear 'admission'

Well, he wants to "bravo" someone that's bashing America (the stylish thing to do) so he can probably stand to be asked why, when he is our neighbor who we happen to have a great relationship with, he feels it necessary to have a dislike for it.
 
bravo because i share his opinion, this not only goes to the USA, it goes to any country in this world that mess with the souvergnitiy of others.
 
Messing with the sovereignty? Are we messing with Mexico's? Canada's? Australia's? Sweden's?

Are we messing with any country that isn't led by genocidal madmen??
 
this is MY opinion: i consider messing with the souvergnity of any country as non-ethical, and nothing you say or do will change my opinion.
 
Bashing america? Wow, is that what its called it disagree with the US's to kill people at their own discretion? I guess "anybody that isn't for us then is against" us huh? Maybe you would like us to make some tactical strikes on Germany as well. Maybe you support regeime change there as well. They aren't for us, they must be against us. Nice arguments from our dictator in chief. Ok, he doesn't treat US, american citizens like a dictator, yet, but he sure seems to feel he has the right to do it elsewhere in the world!!! Now don't get me wrong, I not partisian, ask people who remember me from HWC, I didn't cut billy boy any slack either, but I don't consider it bashing america to disagree with insane policies.

I won't lie to you, as an american, out of a sense of safety, and self preservation, I agree, we should maybe bomb the hell out of who ever might threaten us. But at the same time, I realize its wrong, selfish, and far from just. It makes us ANYTHING BUT the "good guy." This new "doctrine" the our way or the highway, for us or against us. we will bomb you and if you don't like it fuck off cuz you can't stop us policy is sick and wrong. My favorite part was the we will remain number one, militarily, ecomonically and unchallenged basically forever at any cost. Yeah, I bet that does wonders to discourage terrorist attacks. Sure it does. I'm sorry, but if I was a waco dictator, I mean other than the one in the US, it would force me into "use it or loose it mode" but hey, thats just my opinion too. You can be sure, the moment the cruise missles start flying again, and the f117as and the b2s take to the sky, MOST of these people who have a reason to fear our "for us or against us" stance are gonna be put into a corner, and feel that they MUST use it or loose it. Even some week little pussy, who can't fight worth shit can make some damaging blows when backed into a corner by the "big bully." Don't think otherwise. NO, I don't see it as america bashing. I see this as another form of patriotism. No, we have the constitutional right to disagree with our leaders!!!

And thats not "just my opinion."
 
Luis G said:
this is MY opinion: i consider messing with the souvergnity of any country as non-ethical, and nothing you say or do will change my opinion.
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So why are you so upset if the United States doesn't always obey the "treaties" it "signed"? I mean, if North Korea can do it, can't we?
 
RD_151 said:
Bashing america? Wow, is that what its called it disagree with the US's to kill people at their own discretion? I guess "anybody that isn't for us then is against" us huh? Maybe you would like us to make some tactical strikes on Germany as well. Maybe you support regeime change there as well. They aren't for us, they must be against us. Nice arguments from our dictator in chief. Ok, he doesn't treat US, american citizens like a dictator, yet, but he sure seems to feel he has the right to do it elsewhere in the world!!! Now don't get me wrong, I not partisian, ask people who remember me from HWC, I didn't cut billy boy any slack either, but I don't consider it bashing america to disagree with insane policies.
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I disagree with some of Bush's policies as well. I got called a hypocrite for it though.

Anyway, going to war against a threat is not an "insane policy".
 
LastLegionary said:
So why are you so upset if the United States doesn't always obey the "treaties" it "signed"? I mean, if North Korea can do it, can't we?
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if you'd have paid enough attention to my previous posts you wouldn't have asked that.

My opinion on that is still the same, if they signed it then they should follow it.
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If the economy was still roaring, if the dow was still posting record highs, and the nasdaq as well, would we be discussing this? Ok maybe, dady needs some revenge, and well we gotta get those terrorists. I don't know. I just don't agree with it. I can admit, if you asked me my opinion a month or so ago, I would probably be their with you, arguing that we should do it. That we should take out both Iraq and NK to save the US from potential threats. But then I thought about it more. Sorry, everyone has a right to change their mind. Like I said in another thread, I voted for him, but I have a right to change my mind about him. Sure he comes across well to people, aside from his "way with words." But still, I don't consider him to be much more honest than clinton. I did, I really did in the beginning, but that "doctrine" of his, thats what scares me. NO, I can't agree with that, not now, not ever. Sorry. Without this new "Bush Doctrine" I might not favor regieme change at home, but this is scare, and unprecedented. Furthermore, it sets a precedent for the terrorists, and justifies their actions at least partially. "The US is an oppressor, and a threat to our "homeland" and there for must be preemptively attacked to save ourselves from their domination." Thats what one of the terrorist was no doubt thinking. I'm sorry, but if we embrace the bush doctrine, we give some sembelence of justification to the terrorist. And I refuse to accept this, I'm sorry. If Bush's arguments stand against Iraq, than I can see the terrorists, and the "rouge states" of the world using this "doctrine" against us to justify preemptive strikes against us. THAT SCARES ME!!! Who will be "for us" when it happens, after we have justified our actions this way against Iraq, and some other nation justifies theirs accordingly and takes out nyc, d.c., chicago, and few others with nuclear weapons. I don't know about you, but I think we have a hell of a lot more to loose than any of these rouge states. I can't see giving them the justification, and setting the precedent for them to do it. Ok, they might to it anyway, but at least it won't be so soon. And we will have "taken the higher ground" and thus have the "right" to retaliate fully. Besides, I think if the US would stop trying to play god in the world, we wouldn't have so damn many terrorists in the first place!!! Just my opinion though.
 
Luis G said:
this is MY opinion: i consider messing with the souvergnity of any country as non-ethical, and nothing you say or do will change my opinion.
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Am I free to murder my wife and family without my neighbors taking action? Would my neighbors be "messing with my sovereignty"?
 
Nations have sovereignty, not people. Sorry, invalid arguement. Nations have the right to self government, and citizens have the right to enforce the laws of such nations. There are no absolute laws, that overrule nations, thats what sovereignty is all about. That states have the right to enact and enforce laws without the interference of other sovereign nations. Ok, creating some world governement would overrule this, but creating a one world government where nations cease to exist WOULD in theory give the right to enforce "higher laws" as the federal gov't can do over states in the US, but to my knowledge, this hasn't happened yet. Nations STILL EXIST and still have their sovereignty. I know, some people would like to put this to an end, but it hasn't happened just yet. So until it does, we have no right!!! Or at least, so the argument would go!!!
 
Sovereignty does not give a nation a right to be genocidal and invade it's neighbors, slaughtering them in their homes.

I, for one, will be dancing in the streets when a few dozen daisy cutters are dropped into the center of that "country".
 
I disagree! But you know what, you are saying that sovereignty doesn't give you the right to invade another country, but it gives us the right? Where is you consistancy, where is the logic in this? Ok, Iraq isn't our physical neighbor, but in the world community, they are our neighbors! What gives us the right to invade OUR neihbors then? How are we different, cuz its us, cuz we are better than them? How, and why? I don't agree with this line of thought.


As far as genocide goes, why don't we be fair, and say alleged genocide, its a difficult issue to prove. And why is it we only care about genocide in nations that are strategically important to us, an not in the others. Besides, we overlooked Iraq's "genocides" in the past when they were on "our side" against Iran. why was that? Is it ok for us of friends, but not our enemies? Its not a good argument. Furthermore, its not like the US has never commited genocide. The only difference is we succeded where others failed! Maybe thats the difference!
 
Coffee Bean said:
Is this guy for real?
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Apparently he is. :rolleyes:

And why is it we only care about genocide in nations that are strategically important to us, an not in the others.
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Because we care for ourselves and not the rest of the world. OOOh, I said it. We look after ourselves. What a revolutionary concept. For socialists that is. I like looking after myself and my neighbor, and people I know and care about.
 
Its all part of the great global game of chess. Bluff and Grandstand. Were the king of the hill for the time being. It takes a lot of dirty backroom dealings in and out of the country to keep things status quo... or at least away from unfavorable. Most squabblings are outside of the realm of strategic imporotance. African civil wars that kill millions dont make the newspapers because it doesn't affect our consumer prices or offend strategic lobbyists. Such things are never done for altruistic reasons. Theres always an long term strategic objective in mind. Some are more noble than others.
 
Coffee Bean,

I could ask the same about your argument. The difference is I know why you feel this way. You are an american, and you wish to preserve your lifestyle and safety at all costs. I don't necessarily differ on this. But I'm curious if we are being fair to the rest of the world in this respect. ACtually, no, I'm not, I'm sure we aren't being fair. But hey, we never have been, so i dont' expect it to change now. He who has the gold, or the nukes, or whatever makes the rules! Yep, I know, thats life. It still doesn't make it "right." Or does it, I don't know, "right" and "wrong" are relative terms. I will concede that to you! I'm not claiming to be "right" or claiming you are "wrong" I'm only making an argument. What you believe is your choice. Which ever argument is more convincing is good enough for me. Yours hasn't convinced me yet. If you want to say, I'm selfish, I'm an american, I want to rule the world, lets dominate all other nations and overrule their sovereignty cuz we can, well, then you have made a better arguement, but again, I don't have to agree with it. At least you would be honest this way! Don't worry, I don't necessarily disagree with that, in some cases, I can see how it would be better for us, and for the world if we did this, but I'm still not sure that makes it "right."
 
AlladinSane said:
Coffee Bean said:
Is this guy for real?
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I hope he is. I've not seen anyone else backup so well his arguments with logic in much time.
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Logic?

What logic?

First he says...

As far as genocide goes, why don't we be fair, and say alleged genocide, its a difficult issue to prove.
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Then he says...

Furthermore, its not like the US has never commited genocide. The only difference is we succeded where others failed!
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That's called being an Iraqi sympathizer. Saying that there's no proof for Saddam's genocide then turning around and blatantly accusing America of it.

Please, logic...my ass.
 
I wasn't refering to Iraq "specifically," but the US uses the genocide card almost as much as it does the race card, and its bullshit in both instances!!! NO, its the shit in south central europe that comes to my attention most when I use the word alleged. I think its accepted that Iraq did it, but I wasn't refering to THEM in this case. I was speaking generally. And generally accepted, still doesn't mean "proof." But I won't argue this one so much, since I didn't see soooo many arguments to the contrary out side the US press (or should I say propaganda).


As far as our genocide, remember the native americans? Well, there was president, I can't remember which, that is quoted as saying the only "good indian is a dead indian." Does that surprise you? Ok, it wasn't this decade, or even this century, but where do you think we got this land from? The tooth fairy?

YOu need to study your history a little better my friend!
 
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