Shock at N Korean nuclear 'admission'

RD_151 said:
YOu need to study your history a little better my friend!

And you could stand to study the political theory upon which our form of government is based. Soveriegnity resides in the people, not dictators. Dictators do not have a right to nuclear weapons. Thugs like Saddam and the leaders of North Korea don't have the right to anything except-- maybe-- a decent burial.
 
AlladinSane said:
So you're planning going to war with China soon...

Who me? No, I'm planning to go to bed. Tomorrow I'm going to wake up and go shopping where I expect I'll buy a bunch of kids' clothes all manufactured in shit holes like China where a bunch of fascist old farts get to threaten and terrorize people who just want to try to live a halfway decent life before they die and turn into worm food.

You realize this it it, right? This is all you get: one short little life out of an eternity's worth of time in the universe.

You've got it pretty damn good, though. You live in a free country. You've got your internet access, TV, grocery stores piled high with food. You're living better than anyone on this dinky-ass planet ever lived before. Pharoah would envy you your wealth. He'd also envy your focus on living life. He was so terrified of death, he had his people working their assess off every year of his life building him a big-ass tomb, cause this life wasn't enough for him. He had to have eternity too, so he squeezed the life out of his people to get it.

How would you like to have been one of those poor bastards working on his tomb? Knowing that he was going to get to spend eternity living in opulent splendor while you were just get a little quicky embalming that would just give the worms a nice buzz, a small hole in the ground with a few meager possessions tossed in: poor in death, like you were in life. Never anything but the means to Pharoah's glory. Just a tool for someone else to use and then toss aside.

But that's okay, because that's the way things are supposed to be, right? That's what they thought. It's every citizen's duty to work for his king/dictator/tyrant/emperor/whatever. That's what we're supposed to do, live for others. The king represents all the people, so when we serve him we're serving the people-- yeah. Living for ourselves, that's evil. Everyone knows that... pursuing our own happiness, doing whatever we want, that's just selfish...

So what if you were thinking like that, and then you heard about these people in another country who were running around doing whatever they wanted to, chasing after their own happiness, rolling in wealth-- not just the rulers, but all of them, even the poorest, enjoying luxuries out of your reach at any price. What would you think? Obviously, there's something wrong here. Either you're being royally screwed, or they're behaving really badly. Your king tells you that they're being bad, of course. Everyone knows he's a lying bastard, but he also has all the guns under his control. You can call him a liar and demand the freedom to live like those other people, in which case you have a good chance of being killed; or you can say: yeah, king, those people are behaving badly. And if you choose the latter because it's oh so much safer, it won't be hard to generate some very real hatred of those people who give the lie to your entire way of life, because every time you think of them it reminds you that you're just a frightened little person getting screwed by someone bigger than you, and too scared to do anything about it.

So, no. I'm not going to invade China. I'm just going to live my happy little life, and if anyone over there wants to fuck with that, I'll argue for war and be sure to vote for someone with the balls to defend what I've got. I'm too old to enlist, so that's about all I can do.
 
Luis G said:
what about the army of the country ruled by a dictator?

Well, gee... let's see. Are they going to use them against him, and then establish a constitutional republic that protects individual rights? Then sure!!

If they're just going to follow his orders, though, I'd say not. :rolleyes:
 
so if they get a "constitutional republic" (ala USA), they are good guys now and they deserve to have nuclear weapons, but if they are not like the USA then they are evil and have no rights..........geez :confuse2:
 
Luis G said:
so if they get a "constitutional republic" (ala USA), they are good guys now and they deserve to have nuclear weapons, but if they are not like the USA then they are evil and have no rights..........geez :confuse2:

Now you're catching on!

Countries that allow their people to live in freedom are good, countries that don't are bad.

Repeat after me: Freedom good. Tyranny bad. Freedom good. Tyranny bad. Freedom good. Tyranny bad.

Keep going, you'll get it eventually.
 
Luis, I had you in mind when I posted this.

No, they can become a Democratic Republic capitolistic state with freedoms abounding & no government suppression & they still don't need nukes. Unles they live in an area of high suppression & enmity, like Israel.
 
The political theory argument makes some assumptions though doesn't it. Like that there is some "right" or "wrong" I'm not saying something is "right or "wrong" I'm only stating my opinions. Well, what makes you think OUR WAY is "right" and that theirs is "wrong." What further makes you think our form of gov't is more stable, less corrupt, better, and will continue indefinitely. I fear history shows otherwise. Freedom, and aleged "democracy" are anomolies in history, not the general rule. And to believe that this will continue indefinitely, through out the rest of time, is foolishness. Sure, we disagree with this form a gov't NOW, but what makes you think ours will last "forever" thats a long time! So what happens when we give up on "freedom" here. Should people have the right to liberate our people from "tyrany." Ok, by that time, we could be potentially unchallenged, and "unstoppable" (assuming the Bush dotrine is implemented sucessfully), but who knows, what if it is china, the Europe (the EU) or some other state is THE sole super power buy then. Do they have the right to liberate us because they don't like our form of gov't, or our leaders. What if the people dont' complain, what if they do? What akes it right? I don't know to be honest, I only have my opinions, I don't pretend there is some absolute "right" and "wrong." We don't live in a fundementalist religous state. For OUR PEOPLE "right" and "wrong" are relative terms, based on precedent and personal belief. The same isn't true for the people in question though, is it. Well, anyway, one could still argue that their beliefs and religions in which their belief systems are based are invalid, and false, thus still for the world as a whole, there is no "right" and "wrong," and such terms can never exist with any absolute meaning. Then one could assume that one could do as one wishes in setting new precedents for what is "right" and "wrong," in effect creating a new "political theory," a new system of "rules" new laws, and a new "right, and a new "wrong." Meaning it would be "right" to overthrow leaders we don't approve of, and "wrong" to let them "tourture" their people, and in prison them under a regieme we disaprove of. Nevermind the fact that to overthrow these regimes, to "save the people" we must kill a significant portion of them in the process. Sure, we are helping them, we did a marvelous job in Kosovo. What did they need briges for anyway, what about other infrastructure? What about the lives taken but the liberators? We helped them, sure we did. I'm sure they are all overjoyed to be liberated from "tyranny." Yes, they are certainly better off than they were before, as the Iraqis don't doubt will be as well, huh. Yeah, I know, gotta break a few eggs to make an omelett huh. Is that what you are thinking. You must tear down before you rebuild, is that what you are thinking. Well, remember that one day when the tides are turned, and with the passage of time the rebublic disapears here, because in all probability it will, eventually. YOu can of course rely quite well on that old history repeating argument. Of course, this still leaves us with no "right" or "wrong" doesn't it. A new precedent can change what is established in the future can't it? Well, everythying is arbitrary. I realize that. I don't pretend to have answers, I only have QUESTIONS, as you should!!! Don't assume because it was taught, because a harvard man or a yale man said it, it must be "true" or "right." Things in life are relative, there are no absolutes, and NOTHING is so simple as people would like it to appear. Of course, if people, or more importantly the media, or our leaders wanted to fully develop the argument, they might confuse people, overwhelm them, and make the issue more divisive. WE wouldn't want that would we? Of course not, our saftety is at issue, and that is ALL that is at issue here. The "right" or "wrong" of it is irrelevent. Isn't it?

My question to you, is simple. Is it ok to kill the people to liberate them? Assuming you are correct, that its "right" to overthrow dictatorships, and install "democracies" of course "democracies" friendly to our interests no doubt, what about the loss of human life? Is it right to kill people destroy their homes, their bridges, their power generating plants, infrastruture in general, criple their ecomonies for decades, destroy families, and later impose our will on these same people indirectly through the new "democratically elected gov't." Most times these countries revert anyway, you realize that right. Most times it ends up with a worse gov't than it had before, and with a large portion of the population hating the west, and in particular the US. But nevertheless, do you still think its worth it?

Assuming you can change, and shape and mold "right" and "wrong" to the image you choose, doesn't still seem like something so wonderful as you pretend it to be?

Its just a question for you, I have no answers to this, only questions, as should you! Don't take things at face value, even if we can legitimize something, there is still the issue of should we do something, even if we KNOW we can? Of course, "right" or "wrong" we can do whatever we wish, just ask bush. We will continue to reshape and rewrite international law as it suits us, and who will oppose us, but you have it ask if its worth it. Just the end result justify the means. I don't think there is a question, if you try hard enough to defend or justify any argument, if you have enough scholars working on it, you will find your justification, no matter what the cause. I'm quite confident of that. The only question is, "is it worth it."

Now, if the question is "is it worth it to protect the US from Iraq," I would say sure you can argue that quite sucessfully. However, if you argument is that he is a dictator, and that we are trying to help the people, I think you will find more difficulty. Further, if you put it this way, that we would rather kill Iraqis today, than take the chance that some Iraqis may kill us tomorrow, I think you have some trouble with your arguement don't you. That assumes an ameican is worth more than an iraqi, and that we are better than them, now doesn't it? Am I wrong? Explain to me how I'm wrong please?
 
RD_151 said:
The political theory argument makes some assumptions though doesn't it. Like that there is some "right" or "wrong"

Yes, it does. And if you don't think that there's a 'right' and 'wrong' or a 'true' and 'false', then there's absolutely no point in talking to you.

You're a true product of modern education, aren't you? A real case study. :rolleyes:
 
RD_151 said:
In what do you find the basis for right and wrong then. I'm curious?

Life as the standard of value. That which supports life is good, that which tends to destroy it is bad. Pursuing values which support life is right, pursuing those which destroy life is wrong.

Start here:
http://www.aynrand.org/objectivism/essentials.html

Then go here:
http://www.aynrand.org/objectivism/pobs.html

Buy this book and read it:
http://www.aynrandbookstore2.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=CB70B&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=1

Then read everything by Ayn Rand that you can get your hands on. You've got a lot to unlearn. Good luck.
 
Actually, as an American, I would like Sadam out of power, a democracy in Iraq, in Iran, in NK, in Cuba, EVERYWHERE if possible, but ya know what, its not my choice, or yours either unfortunately. Its not president Bush's choice, its the people in those countries that need to make that choice. I think polical theory will back that argument (at least for the time being). I think we want them to develop their own laws, and leadership, and rule of the people, by the peole, and for the people, not by the of United States, by the United States, and for the Untied States!!!

Its just not easy for them to do it, but I don't think it make it right for us to do it for them, just because they hvaen't done it themselves. People have respect for things they do for themselves, but generally try to resist things imposed upon them by others, no matter how "well intentioned" it may have been.
 
Sure, I'll give it a read. I'm a little curious after looking at your links. However, the thing I don't like about Philosphy in general is you can pick an choose what you wish to believe and what you wish to dismiss. I would guess, without having read more, that the US doesn't subscribe to this philosophy though does it. I was arguing based on the philosophy which I watched the last 2 adminstrations follow. If they were following this, the one you personally subscribe to, maybe it would be relevent, but to my knoledge, they aren't. I seems a little too far to the right for even most repubs.

I suppose you prefer this objectivism to the relativsim of the current and previous adminstration.
 
One last note, I don't see right in wrong in relativistic terms, but the US does, so I was arguing only from the point from which we as a nation are making our arguments, and yes, teaching our children in schools.

To be honest, I would prefer the believe in some religion, any religion (assuming the "rules" are "good."). The problem with that, is you are still imposing your will, or the will of the religion on the people, and it must be done on a world wide basis, or it doesn't work. Ok, I don't like that idea either!! It worked to keep order in the old days, before the world was a "global village" to use clintonian language. I don't know what works in the "New Order" but I know its not so simple as it was in the past, to simple manipulate and control with religion. After the reign of terror by the catholic church in the past, this clearly has a lot of problems as well.

Well, as far as choosing some philosophy from which to judge right and wrong, that has problems as well, because again, you need world wide acceptance of this standard, not an easy task.

It sounds a bit idealistic to me. The problem with the modern world is that answers only lead to more questions, and those questions tend to undermine the original answer. I know, I don't like it either. Thats why I'm not claiming to have any anwers, only more questions.

I can tell you, whatever is done or not done can be argued to be wrong base on one set of arguments or another.

I don't like the idea of killing people to "save them" myself. Or the idea of killing others to save ourselves from something that others MIGHT do to us in the future. As I have said, this lends legitimacy to the terrorists actions. I think they could argue that they were attacking us because they knew that in the future we would attack them, and kill their people, so its better to take your toll now before its too late. I would think most Ameicans, including myself, would disagree with this logic. And correspondingly, I think Iraq or NK could disagree with our logic of a preemptive strike.
 
Ardsgaine said:
Repeat after me: Freedom good. Tyranny bad. Freedom good. Tyranny bad. Freedom good. Tyranny bad.

Freedom good, Tyranny bad, Freedom good, Tyranny bad, Souvergnity Good, Tirany bad....Souvergnity Good, not respecting souvergnity bad.......

ok, i got it.
 
Luis G said:
Ardsgaine said:
Repeat after me: Freedom good. Tyranny bad. Freedom good. Tyranny bad. Freedom good. Tyranny bad.

Freedom good, Tyranny bad, Freedom good, Tyranny bad, Souvergnity Good, Tirany bad....Souvergnity Good, not respecting souvergnity bad.......

ok, i got it.
Haha.

I'd respect sovereignty up to a certain point. If I know my neighbor is going to kill 3 million of my civilians in the near future, fuck sovereignty and make a pre-emptive strike.
 
if that's what NK is thinking, maybe they should make a pre-emptive strike on the USA ;)
 
Luis G,

Exactly!

There is too much "patriotism" if thats what you can call it here.

LL,

What makes you so sure they are gonna kill 3 million americans. Thats a rather large assumption. Don't you think?

I think its a better assumption that we are about to kill thousands of Iraqis, don't you think that should give them some case for attacking us preemptively? I sure hope they don't, but I see that they have a case for it!!! At least according to YOUR reasoning, ok, you borrowed your reasoning, AMERICAN reasoning. That really scares me that WE as a people believe this shit!!!
 
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