Smoking???

markjs

Banned
Gonz said:
They released it & then rescinded it, after complaints from governments & agencies. I'm still tryng to find a copy.


They recinded it because among other things I am sure, there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
 

markjs

Banned
Gonz said:
They released it & then rescinded it, after complaints from governments & agencies. I'm still tryng to find a copy.


You work for the Tobacco industry don't you?
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
markjs said:
You work for the Tobacco industry don't you?

Nope. I think people need to not presuppose claims as fact. I'm trying to break the beliefs that so many hold & which are, in fact, not true or have not been proven.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
Thirdly the thing is funded by tobbacco companies.
Oh, come on! They wouldn't lie would they?????

Edit: Started somking a pipe in 1977; quit in 1998. Miss it on an almost daily basis still. If something happened to my lovely wife, I'd probably start again in a heartbeat.
 

tonksy

New Member
chcr said:
Started somking a pipe in 1977; quit in 1998. Miss it on an almost daily basis still.
i smoke a pipe on a daily basis. but, information about that is not plastered everywhere for me to see, i am burying my head in the sand on that one. you'll never see me suing my dealer because i got lung cancer. they don't take to that, usually...
 

markjs

Banned
Gonz said:
Nope. I think people need to not presuppose claims as fact. I'm trying to break the beliefs that so many hold & which are, in fact, not true or have not been proven.


You know damn well there is science to suggest a link between second hand smoke and complictions thereof...Real studies and far more of them than the ones that suggest differently
 

markjs

Banned
The fact is you do indeed work for the tobbacco companies but you are just too pitiful to find a way for them to pay you for it.

By the same token your studies that say the correlation between second hand smoke and complication may be less than we thought....in no way prove that smoke isn't harmful.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
markjs said:
By the same token your studies that say the correlation between second hand smoke and complication may be less than we thought....in no way prove that smoke isn't harmful.


It took you this long to figure that out? I'm not saying it won't be proven harmful. I'm say THERE IS NO PROOF. Tomorrow there may be. Tomorrow they may decide that smoking keeps aliens away & we should all do it.

I think people need to not presuppose claims as fact.
 

markjs

Banned
Gonz said:
It took you this long to figure that out? I'm not saying it won't be proven harmful. I'm say THERE IS NO PROOF. Tomorrow there may be. Tomorrow they may decide that smoking keeps aliens away & we should all do it.


So you admit the weight of the evidence suggests that second hand smoke is harmful.....but only that it's not solidly proven?

Because thats really my argument is that to the best of our knowlege it is harmful and should be treated as a hazard until at least the weight of the evidence shifts.
 

IDLEchild

Well-Known Member
Justintime said:
I smoke its my choice i ain't gonna complain if i get lung cancer, i know why i did and what'll happen.


The judge should tell that to those who sue tobacco companies for money
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Shit Gonz, think of all the people you know that have or had Enphisema and tell me how many of them never were regular smokers.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Luis G said:
Shit Gonz, think of all the people you know that have or had Enphisema and tell me how many of them never were regular smokers.

2 have it. 1 smoked.


from todays local rag
MICHAEL FUMENTO: Second-hand smoke is harmful to science

Scripps Howard News Service Published: September 11, 2003, 08:48:00 AM PDT

(SH) - Looking for a surer method of being ripped apart than entering a lion's den covered with catnip? Conduct the most exhaustive, longest-running study on second-hand smoke and death. Find no connection. Then rather than being PC and hiding your data in a vast warehouse next to the Ark of the Covenant, publish it in one of the world's most respected medical journals.
That's what research professor James Enstrom of UCLA and professor Geoffrey Kabat of the State University of New York, Stony Brook discovered last May. That's when they reported in the British Medical Journal that their 39-year study of 35,561 Californians who had never smoked showed no "causal relationship between exposure to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) and tobacco-related mortality," adding, however "a small effect" can't be ruled out.

At this writing there have been over 140 responses on www.bmj.com, and if made into a movie they would be called "The Howling." Many are mere slurs several grades below even sophomoric.

Some demanded the BMJ retract the study because, as one put it, the "tobacco industry will use it." (It didn't). Another made the rather draconian call to ban all use of statistics in science, lest they be put to such wicked purposes as this.

"It is astounding how much of the criticism springs from (personal attacks) rather than from scientific criticism of the study itself," observed one of the few supportive writers. Said another: "As a publisher of the leading Austrian medical online news service, I feel quite embarrassed following the debate on this article. Many postings look more like a witch hunt than a scientific debate."

Sadly, one of the most pathetic responses came from Dr. Michael Thun, vice president for epidemiology and surveillance research at the American Cancer Society. The ACS started the study and formerly collaborated with the authors. Thun claimed that since there was so much exposure to smokers back in the 1950s and 1960s that essentially everybody was a second-hand smoker.

This logic puts the wife of a two-pack-a-day husband in the same category as somebody who once stumbled into a smoky bar. It negates ALL ETS studies based on spousal exposure including those serving Thun's purposes. But based on the subjects' own recollection decades later in the UCLA study, spousal smoking was indeed a good indicator of their total exposure to second-hand smoke.

One refrain running through the attacks is, "Why take seriously a study that contradicts what everyone already knows?" But "what everyone knows" is wrong. It's the UCLA study that's very much in the majority.

A 1999 Environmental Health Perspectives survey of 17 ETS-heart disease studies found only five that were statistically significantly positive. ("Statistical significance" refers to whether an increased or decreased risk falls outside the bounds of what could be expected by chance.) The lead author? Why, Michael Thun! Likewise, a 2002 analysis of 48 studies regarding a possible ETS link to lung cancer found 10 that were significantly positive, one that was actually significantly negative, and 37 that like Enstrom and Kabat's were insignificant either way.

The reason active tobacco smoking could be such a terrible killer while ETS may cause no deaths lies in the dictum "the dose makes the poison." We are constantly bombarded by carcinogens, but in tiny amounts the body usually easily fends them off.

A New England Journal of Medicine study found that even back in 1975 - when having smoked obnoxiously puffed into your face was ubiquitous in restaurants, cocktail lounges, and transportation lounges - the concentration was equal to merely 0.004 cigarettes an hour. In scientific terminology, that's called a "tiny amount."

Unable to find significant faults in the UCLA study itself, critics repeatedly harped on what Enstrom and Kabat had clearly stated - that some of the funding was from the tobacco industry. As they explained, this became necessary when the University of California Tobacco-Related Disease Research Program, which was specifically set up to support this type of research, stopped their funding and no other sources were available.

The big bucks go to those who "discover" that ETS causes everything from pimples to piles. Both governmental and private organizations have directed tens of millions of dollars to groups promoting ETS as a killer, along with funding research concluding ETS more harmful than active smoking! Meanwhile Big Tobacco has essentially extinguished its efforts on ETS, reserving new spending and political capital for other fights.

So give the BMJ and Enstrom and Kabat an "F" for political correctness. But give them an "A" for honesty and courage.

Michael Fumento is a senior fellow with the Hudson Institute.
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Of all the people i've known with enphisema all of them smoked.

Seriously, saying that smoking is not harmfull is like saying that alcohol is not harmful either, both are related specifically to enphisema and cirrosis (is that the name??) respectively :shrug:
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Luis G said:
Seriously, saying that smoking is not harmfull

Don't put words in my mouth (text). I have never said that. I have said there is not one shred of proof that smoking, nor second hand smoke, causes jack shit.
 

freako104

Well-Known Member
I did I quit about a year and 7 months ago. octobert 4 will be 8 months and a year. I have no problems with it nor with people doing it. i kind of miss it and feel like I need one though more people have been proud of me quit. same with weed. i wont do it again but if other want to its their right.
 

Squiggy

ThunderDick
Gonz said:
Don't put words in my mouth (text). I have never said that. I have said there is not one shred of proof that smoking, nor second hand smoke, causes jack shit.


This time you insist on having proof?......Theres a whole lot more proof in the data on this than there was for the reasons to create all that smoke in Iraq. And look how many that smoke killed.... :eek6:
 

freako104

Well-Known Member
but squiggy its not smoking or cancer or heart attacks that kill people. its death that kills 100% of people ;)
 
Top