The "A" word is back

Re: The

Define Viable and Healthy. I wanna know what parameters you consider acceptable for killing an innocent.
 
NRL said:
There is no evidence that the reasons for which late-term abortions are performed by the partial-birth abortion method are any different, in general, than the reasons for which late-term abortions are performed by other methods -- and it is well established that the great majority of late-term abortions do not involve any illness of the mother or the baby. They are purely "elective" procedures-- that is, they are performed for purely "social" reasons.

In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), collected questionnaires from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, "420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks." These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. Only two percent (2%) said "a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy," compared to 71% who responded "did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation," 48% who said "found it hard to make arrangements," and 33% who said "was afraid to tell her partner or parents." The report did not indicate that any of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems. ["Why Do Women Have Abortions?," Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988.]

Also illuminating is an 1993 internal memo by Barbara Radford, then the executive director of the National Abortion Federation, a "trade association" for abortion clinics:

There are many reasons why women have late abortions: life endangerment, fetal indications, lack of money or health insurance, social-psychological crises, lack of knowledge about human reproduction, etc."

Likewise, a June 12, 1995, National Abortion Federation letter to members of the House of Representatives noted that late abortions are sought by, among others, "very young teenagers...who have not recognized the signs of their pregnancies until too late," and by "women in poverty, who have tried desperately to act responsibly and to end an unplanned pregnancy in the early stages, only to face insurmountable financial barriers."

In her article about late-term abortions, based in part on extensive interviews with Dr. McMahon and on direct observation of his practice (Los Angeles Times Magazine, January 7, 1990), reporter Karen Tumulty concluded:

If there is any other single factor that inflates the number of late abortions, it is youth. Often, teen-agers do not recognize the first signs of pregnancy. Just as frequently, they put off telling anyone as long as they can.

According to Peggy Jarman, spokeswoman for Dr. George Tiller, who specializes in late-term abortions in Wichita, Kansas:

About three-fourths of Tiller's late-term patients, Jarman said, are teen-agers who have denied to themselves or their families they were pregnant until it was too late to hide it. [Kansas City Star]
Click to expand...
 
Now, I KNOW there are laws governing 'elective' abortions...If someone is doing them outside the constraints of those laws then, yes, its wrong. If I were qualified to determine the criteria that governs the determination, I would be a much wealthier person. I'm nothowever, going to throw it out there and blanket all involved as murderers.....You might as well call any cop that kills someone a murderer also. So what if he had 'reasons'.
 
Re: The

Squiggy said:
You're assuming a viable and healthy fetus...I don't believe that the case with most if not all late term abortions...
Click to expand...
So are you saying you'd like it if they found out the baby has, say, Down's Syndrome, or it was missing an arm, that the best course of action is to have the mother give birth a couple of weeks early and kill it on the way out? That's the only way what you said would make sense. If the baby died in the womb, then it would be a stillbirth and they wouldn't have to kill the baby while it's being born... therefore, no abortion.

Besides, in California at least you can have the baby and just "safely surrender" it right there in the ER. The girl gives birth, and then she walks out of the maternity ward with no further responsibility. It's just like a partial-birth abortion, except the baby lives.
 
:hmm: I didn't say anything about liking any of it....Why don't you just rewrite my posts if you're going to misread them that badly...
 
Re: The

Leslie said:
it's amazing how much men like this topic.
Click to expand...

True.....I have often wondered if the debate would have been so heated & carried on for so long if men were the ones to get pregnant :rolleyes:
 
Re: The

Inkara1 said:
So are you saying you'd like it if they found out the baby has, say, Down's Syndrome, or it was missing an arm, that the best course of action is to have the mother give birth a couple of weeks early and kill it on the way out?
Click to expand...

Um, I believe the reason these abortions are left so late is because oftentimes, THAT'S when the mother finds out about the defects. As far as I know, you can't actually test the amniotic fluid for defects until the pregnancy is fairly advanced.

Only about 1% of abortions occur after 20 weeks. The demand for late-2nd-trimester abortions is largely from two groups: women who learned from amniocentesis that they were carrying defective fetuses, and women who were unable to get abortions earlier in pregnancy.
Click to expand...

from here:
http://www.korrnet.org/choicetn/LateTermSmith3.html
 
Re: The

Well, if you're aborting a kid because of some sort of birth defect, then that brings a whole new subject into the mix, one that would really need its own discussion.

And don't forget we're only talking about partial-birth abortions, and no other kind.

Squiggy, the "like" erroneously made it through a revision. I found a way to better express what I was saying, and forgot to delete the "like." It sounds like a cop-out, but it's the truth. Now that that's settled, feel free to answer the actual question I posed.

And to you women out there: instead of focusing on how men are debating this, why don't you tell us where you stand? If you think partial-birth abortion is a good thing, tell us why. Let's have an actual debate instead of ad hominem attacks that have nothing to do with the real topic.
 
Re: The "A" word

BeardofPants said:
Um, I believe the reason these abortions are left so late is because oftentimes, THAT'S when the mother finds out about the defects. As far as I know, you can't actually test the amniotic fluid for defects until the pregnancy is fairly advanced.
Click to expand...
sometimes this is true, many times not. my own personal experience involves a close sister, 2 of them actually. one carried the baby full term and then the baby, rachel, died five days later. my other sister had the same problem and aborted. Now then, which of them was right? i can only say that the sister who carried full term is having alot more trouble now in her life. she held the child, and the child died. in this case i really feel for the mothers and fathers. the only problem i have with abortion is when it is used as a means of birth control
 
Re: The

And to you women out there: instead of focusing on how men are debating this, why don't you tell us where you stand?
Click to expand...

um...no...not much point to that.

This is one of the ages old issues which are ours and ours alone. As we always have, we'll continue to do what we gotta do when we gotta do it regardless of what the good ol' boys think, or of what the pc idea of the day is.
 
Re: The

my question still stands

Now, somebody, please, explain how partially delivering & killing a viable baby is a safety safeguard to a woman.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The

I asked my wife (she's a nurse) about this and she says she has never seen or heard of a partial birth abortion preformed on a viable infant. All these religiuos right people really want is the right to decide for the woman (and for you and me for that matter). This is just their way of sneaking a little bit at a time by you. You act like there are thousands of doctors killing perfectly healthy babies for no reason. BTW Inky, a Down's Syndrome child is considered viable and healthy by the medical community. I can't believe how easily and completely some of you are pulled in by the propaganda. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised.
I have often wondered if the debate would have been so heated & carried on for so long if men were the ones to get pregnant :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
If men were the ones that got pregnant
1. Birth control would be free and taste like beer.
2. This debate would not exist.
 
Re: The

chcr said:
I asked my wife (she's a nurse) about this and she says she has never seen or heard of a partial birth abortion preformed on a viable infant.
Click to expand...

So, it doesn't happen because she's not seen it? There are hundreds of thousands of abortions performed every year. If 1% of 100k are late term & 1% of those are viable, it's no less than 10 murders performed legally.
 
Re: The

It never ceases to amze me how people can read one thing and understand something completely different.

I'll try to make it plain

In my wife's experience she has personally never heard of or seen a late term or partial birth abortion on a viable infant. This in no way implies that it has not or will not ever happen, just that in her expeience she has never seen or heard of one. The point is (and let me stress that there was and is a point) that the right-to-lifers continually try to make the entire abortion issue into an emotional issue by misrepresenting and lying about the facts. They have been doing this for years and years, and how sad that people encourage them by accepting what they say at face value. A healthy child killed in the process of childbirth is murder. A dead or dying child, aborted to protect the mother is a medical procedure. Someone outside the people directly involved has no right to interfere.
 
Re: The

Gonz said:
So, it doesn't happen because she's not seen it? There are hundreds of thousands of abortions performed every year. If 1% of 100k are late term & 1% of those are viable, it's no less than 10 murders performed legally.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that it happens, legally or not. I know that it happens in China, but they only allow the head to crest before injecting formaldehyde into the brain, immediatly killing the child. I can imagine that the method would be similar to this in North America

Now... here's something that came to me as I was originally reading this thread.

If the birth would cause damage to the woman physically, then why not use c-section to remove the child? It's more invasive but may avoid a lot of the problems associated with vaginal birth, non?

If the child is not vaible, and the Drs allow it to become born, they don't have a choice BUT to try and rescue it. It could be born without a brain, or a heart and they'd have to slap machines on it to keep it alive. Then the mother would have to sign a DNR and force the Drs to unplug the child. Psychologically dmaging.

IMHO- I don't know how any woman or girl can possible not know that she's pregnant or allow herself to be placed in this situation by not doing something earlier in the pregnancy.
 
Re: The

IMHO- I don't know how any woman or girl can possible not know that she's pregnant or allow herself to be placed in this situation by not doing something earlier in the pregnancy.
Click to expand...
Bish, I think you're expecting rational decision making from perhaps the least rationally controllable process in the human experience. You have at least one child if I remember correctly. How rational was life at your house leading up to the birth?
 
Re: The

chcr said:
The point is (and let me stress that there was and is a point) that the right-to-lifers continually try to make the entire abortion issue into an emotional issue by misrepresenting and lying about the facts.
Click to expand...

The abortion on demand crowd uses the exact same methods. They prey on womens fears of having the right undeniably taken away. They stand behind morally bankrupt leaders for their stance on abortion at the expense of their own cause. They are no more just than the right to lifers. Only different.
 
Re: The

Gonz said:
The abortion on demand crowd uses the exact same methods. They prey on womens fears of having the right undeniably taken away. They stand behind morally bankrupt leaders for their stance on abortion at the expense of their own cause. They are no more just than the right to lifers. Only different.
Click to expand...



how are our leaders morally bankrupt? cause they are for choice? or do you have no problem with pro-choicers themselves but dont like people in power?
 
Re: The

I am pro-choice. There is a point at which "choice" becomes child. Mypoint, 4.5 moths is the ultimate cutoff, all past 3 months require medical necessity.
Others cut off is conception & others are an hour before birth.

Morally bankrupt leaders-do we have to drag up Dolly Kyle Browning, Gennifer Flowers, Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, Monica Lewinsky, Paula Jones? He wasn't the first , isn't the only & won't be the last. He did, however, have the NAGs supporting him & calling all these women losers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top