The Git-Bay slippery slope

Gonz said:
Back to the threads premise.
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Pussy.
Gonz said:
It scares the living shit out of me. Government is too big. People in government have too much power over our daily lives. We've handed over our independence to the thought police so nobody has to be offended.
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Yep, I agree.
Gonz said:
The Patriot Act, as well as the detainee's at Guantanamo are an unusual predicament. Theeir existance stand against everything I believe in yet due to circumstances they are appropriate. We are at war. (With terrorism & the countries that sponsor it) I looked through our past & saw that it's not unusual to give up large chunks of liberty during conflicts. They've been returned after the war was won.
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True, in the past. But when exactly do you see this war ending? I don't. I see a neverending struggle, only made worse by our efforts to stop it. Sure, we might give Al-Quada a run here, but what about the next one, what about the one that does an even better job of infiltrating our society, What about the one that is comprised of people that look like us?
Gonz said:
Usually by going about our business but ocassionally buy the courts.

If or when political opponents begin disappearing we won't need the UN (do we ever?) to assist our country. The people will end that shit in a hurry. It goes against the very grain of this country. Hating your neighbor is American. Kidnapping & killing that neighbor isn't.
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I do see a need for the UN, unless of course the US does become this powerhouse that contols the world, and if that happens, God help us all.
 
PuterTutor said:
Pussy.
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You betcha. I already have most of the Canadians & all the Mexicans hating me :D

PuterTutor said:
Yep, I agree.True, in the past. But when exactly do you see this war ending? I don't. I see a neverending struggle, only made worse by our efforts to stop it. Sure, we might give Al-Quada a run here, but what about the next one, what about the one that does an even better job of infiltrating our society, What about the one that is comprised of people that look like us?
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We have 2 options. Give in or kill them. Neverending? Nah, it'll end as soon as the world unites to end terrorism. Made worse? How is spreading freedom & democracy a bad thing? It's already helped Iraq. Libya has wimped out. Iran is tettering farther daily. Multiple Arab countries have already begun the process of democratizing their country. Time is our enemy. Time & a never ending flow of negative news. If half of the advances made were reported instead of 100% of the headaches we'd be 100x better off. Last week we were in the biggest firefight since Normandy, if the press had it their way at least. This week, on page 14a in the left column you might find the story of the insurgents waving a white flag. The Marines kicked ass & nobody knows.



PuterTutor said:
I do see a need for the UN, unless of course the US does become this powerhouse that contols the world, and if that happens, God help us all.
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I also see a need. This one is broken though. And for the record, what is, specifically, be the problem of America being teh lone poewrhouse that controls the world? We aren't teh bad guy no matter what the media has lead you to believe.
 
True, in the past. But when exactly do you see this war ending?
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honestly: I dont think it will until we get rid of all the terrorists. I will admit I dont think there is a connection between Iraq and any of the terrorists, but I think once all of them are gone the war will end. I hope it will anyway. I think Iraq is just a battle.
 
Gonz said:
Neverending? Nah, it'll end as soon as the world unites to end terrorism. Made worse? How is spreading freedom & democracy a bad thing? It's already helped Iraq. Libya has wimped out. Iran is tettering farther daily. Multiple Arab countries have already begun the process of democratizing their country. Time is our enemy. Time & a never ending flow of negative news. If half of the advances made were reported instead of 100% of the headaches we'd be 100x better off. Last week we were in the biggest firefight since Normandy, if the press had it their way at least. This week, on page 14a in the left column you might find the story of the insurgents waving a white flag. The Marines kicked ass & nobody knows.
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Well, probably true about the reporting. It's not the countries that I'm worried about though, and even though a country might encourage or look away from terrorsts, there is still the cells out there that can operate independant of any country. Training camps aren't even really a problem, at least here in the midwest there are gun clubs every 40 miles or so. But the real big problem with fighting terrorists is that they don't mind dying. These people are raised with the belief that dying for the cause is righteous. As long as we piss people off, there will be people out there that will classify as terrorists.

Gonz said:
I also see a need. This one is broken though. And for the record, what is, specifically, be the problem of America being teh lone poewrhouse that controls the world? We aren't teh bad guy no matter what the media has lead you to believe.
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Don't get me wrong, I love my country, most days anyway. It's the thought of one person or one government being in charge of everything that scares the hell out of me. You think the Patriot Act is bad? Put in one world government, then we can be really controlled.
 
freako104 said:
honestly: I dont think it will until we get rid of all the terrorists. I will admit I dont think there is a connection between Iraq and any of the terrorists, but I think once all of them are gone the war will end. I hope it will anyway. I think Iraq is just a battle.
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Yep, if they were all dead, that would be the end of it alright.
 
it would be the end of the war but would there be reprecussions for it I wonder.




You think the Patriot Act is bad? Put in one world government, then we can be really controlled.
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I agree with that.
 
PuterTutor said:
These people are raised with the belief that dying for the cause is righteous. As long as we piss people off, there will be people out there that will classify as terrorists.
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Vert true. As soon as the adult bad guys are dead, start educating, not indoctrinating, the kids. We are not the bad guy. Never have been. This is a world governed by the agressive use of force. We usually have waited until all else has failed. This time, we're not waiting.
 
But I thought you want the government out of our homes?

I guess it's ok for the gov to be in theirs?
 
Gonz said:
Vert true. As soon as the adult bad guys are dead, start educating, not indoctrinating, the kids. We are not the bad guy. Never have been. This is a world governed by the agressive use of force. We usually have waited until all else has failed. This time, we're not waiting.
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Let's not try to teach a better way, just the same way. :shrug:
 
We've shown a better way for the last century. Look what we got for our troubles. Countries won't attack us but they'll allow terrorist groups to gather freely on their soil & use their land as a base of operations. So now we have to end that practice also.
 
Gonz said:
We've shown a better way for the last century. Look what we got for our troubles. Countries won't attack us but they'll allow terrorist groups to gather freely on their soil & use their land as a base of operations. So now we have to end that practice also.
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So instead of continuing the struggle for a better world, we should simply give up. They win, I guess.
 
Catch-22. If we do nothing we look weak & they win. If we attack muslim countries they call it a crusade & they win. If we show strength & resolve, we win. That may include parts of 1 & 2 in various combinations.
 
Gonz said:
Catch-22. If we do nothing we look weak & they win. If we attack muslim countries they call it a crusade & they win. If we show strength & resolve, we win. That may include parts of 1 & 2 in various combinations.
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I agree with the catch-22 part. I just thought it might have been better to do that for which we stand. I think we probably did that for which the current administration stands, which is part of what worries me. :shrug:

Oh, and just to reiterrate, I think we did exactly what the terrorists wanted us to do.
 
The problem with the war on Terrorism, is that 'we' define who is and isn't a terrorist and who is or isn't a freedom fighter.

Group A seems to be fighting for democracy and is using methods that are extreme...but extreme ideals require extreme measures. They're fighting for a taste of our way of life, so they're freedom fighters.

Group B seems to be fighting to religious freedom, which 'we' espouse, and although we don't like the GVT they're planning on building, the freedom of religion is a good thing, so they're freedom fighters. We can help them find freedom and afterwards, steer them towards democracy.

Group C is fighting for freedom from foreign influences, which 'we' espouse, but their GVT sucks BUT freedom from foreign influence is a good thing, so they're freedom fighters. We can help them defend their borders and afterwards, steer them towards democracy.

The moment any of those three groups include 'us' as their enemy...they're no longer freedom fighters, but the enemy, and depending on the methods that they use, they're also terroristrs.

"we" are now at war with them.
I don't see how this war, and thus the Guantanamo Bay prescedent, will ever see an end.

Aside- The USA was founded upon revolution of the peoples against a GVT in place that was corrupt. If such a thing was attempted today, on a small or large scale, what is stopping the GVT in place from labeling ''them' terrorists and war-mongers and taking them away?
 
MrBishop said:
Aside- The USA was founded upon revolution of the peoples against a GVT in place that was corrupt. If such a thing was attempted today, on a small or large scale, what is stopping the GVT in place from labeling ''them' terrorists and war-mongers and taking them away?
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Viva la revolucion!!

oh wait... thats from the bad part of Cuba. Not the good part where they keep bad people forever locked away. My bad.
 
now how could you get those confused???




now back to seriousness:

I too have a problem and Kawaii and a few others have said this:


One mans terrorist is anothers hero
 
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