The Vatican Evolves

[Bobby Hogg]

That's rather convoluted. Also, pointless.

Not that I'm a practising Catholic or anything, but I'm at least glad the priests who taught me at school were sane enough not to try to pretend the story of Creation is anything other than an Old Testament fairytale.

 

[Gotholic]

You were not clear nor correct in that statement.

I thought he ment were like an ape who didn't walk upright. Sorry for the lack of clarity...

 

[Professur]

. But it looks like the Professur is saying that Adam was not a homo sapien because he believes Adam was not the first human.

Negative. A homo sapien is a soulless animal. A "MAN", is a biological homo sapien with a soul. Ergo, Adam was biologically a homo sapien. But one with something new.

 

[Gotholic]

Son, either you need to get out more, or you really need to invite your priest to supper and get down to brass tacks.

Genesis, God created all. Personally, I like to think that He's a lazy prick like me, and wouldn't work any harder than he had to. Being omniscient, the concept of "butterfly wings" is nothing but simple math to Him. Start a tiny effect, and wait until it builds what you want. Tada, you have Homo Sapien. Then, when you've got him built as you want him, you give him a soul. (you did know that animals don't have souls, didn't you?) Now you've one MAN surrounded by animals (homo spapiens, homo sapien neandrathal, etc). Well, it's a bitch to have a spiritual discussion with something that doesn't have a spirit, so God gives him someone to talk to. Take a small part of the soul you gave the first one, and give it to another. Since the soul is infinite, both have full souls now.
Any questions so far?

You really believe that?

 

[Bobby Hogg]

The evolution of conscience and self-awareness.

 

[Gotholic]

You're mixing me up with someone else.

I said your post was bizarre because:

- Homosapiens were not the first bipedal species of ape or human (maybe you mean the first to walk upright, which would also be wrong)

Sorry for the mix up.

I didn't mean any of those.

- You mentioned God being bipedal. God is supposedly a metaphysical (i.e. defies description) being, made up of 3 divine entities. I think suggesting he is bipedal sort of misses the point about God.

I said one could say that God is bipedal based on biblical references.

I don't think I was misled, either, given that I was taught by priests on the subject. I'm not really interested in Papal decrees or whatever, however I assume most priests are up to date with them.

Unfortunately, there are priests who teach against the faith either purposely or unknowingly. You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. Original sin is an actual event that happened. Why do you think catholics get baptised?

The Catholic faith does not place a great deal of emphasis on Old Testament scripture, given that it is the work and teachings of Christ and his disciples that the religion is founded upon. Christ often contradicted much of the Old Testament and "updated" the notion of God.

Christ doesn't contradict it but actually fulfills it.

some of our time in class was spent having a good old laugh at the Old Testament, particularly Leviticus.

I'm curious, what is so amusing?

 

[Professur]

You really believe that?

good question. I've always asked myself, why would anyone waste the time to write down, and carve into stone in some cases, falsehoods? It costs too much. Until recently, simple writing tools would cost a year's food at least.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

I said one could say that God is bipedal based on biblical references.

And I'm saying, given that the Catholic God is supposedly a metaphysical (i.e. non-corporeal) being who encompasses 3 divine entities, isn't a physical description a little redundant?

Unfortunately, there are priests who teach against the faith either purposely or unknowingly. You can look it up for yourself if you don't believe me. Original sin is an actual event that happened. Why do you think catholics get baptised?

I'm sure they do, however forgive me if I find trained Catholic theologians, whose ideas make sense, more reliable than some dude off the internet.

Catholicism has changed a lot over the years. Maybe this is another change you haven't caught up with yet. They even bury unbaptised babies and suicide victims on consecrated ground these days.

Christ doesn't contradict it but actually fulfills it.

He quite blatantly contradicts it. Particularly the Old Testament idea of God. In fact, you could almost say that God and divinity are largely besides the point when it comes to Christ's teachings.

I'm curious, what is so amusing?

Leviticus, in particular, has a large number of ridiculous laws and fantastic punishments for breaking them.

 

[Gotholic]

And I'm saying, given that the Catholic God is supposedly a metaphysical (i.e. non-corporeal) being who encompasses 3 divine entities, isn't a physical description a little redundant?

The Bible gives God a physical description.

I'm sure they do, however forgive me if I find trained Catholic theologians, whose ideas make sense, more reliable than some dude off the internet.

Have you ever heard of a book called the Catechism of The Catholic Church? It is a book that is filled with what the Catholic Church believes. Anyone who teaches contrary to it is going against the faith of the Catholic Church.

Let me quote from it...

From the Catechism of The Catholic Church:

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

I have thus proven that if your priest ever taught you that the Bible account of original sin is no more than a fairy tale then he is teaching contrary to the Catholic faith. It was an actual event.

Catholicism has changed a lot over the years. Maybe this is another change you haven't caught up with yet. They even bury unbaptised babies and suicide victims on consecrated ground these days.

The Catholic faith has not changed but has been consistent throughout history. What has changed is Catholic behavior, which is what you just gave examples of.

He quite blatantly contradicts it. Particularly the Old Testament idea of God. In fact, you could almost say that God and divinity are largely besides the point when it comes to Christ's teachings.

You do know that God is unchanging? Jesus and God are one. He can not contradict Himself. And on the contrary, it was through Christ's teachings that we know He was divine.

Leviticus, in particular, has a large number of ridiculous laws and fantastic punishments for breaking them.

Those laws no longer apply since they are no longer necessary.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

The Bible gives God a physical description.

I'd like to see it, just for laughs.

Have you ever heard of a book called the Catechism of The Catholic Church? It is a book that is filled with what the Catholic Church believes. Anyone who teaches contrary to it is going against the faith of the Catholic Church.

Let me quote from it...

From the Catechism of The Catholic Church:



I have thus proven that if your priest ever taught you that the Bible account of original sin is no more than a fairy tale then he is teaching contrary to the Catholic faith. It was an actual event.

Yes, I've heard of the catechism. Your passage proves nothing other than offering an explanation of original sin. No where does it say Adam should be seen as a literal historic figure.

And quite frankly, I'm glad the priests at my school weren't patronising enough to try and teach any of us that the story of creation was literal, because even if they still managed to lose me as a practising Catholic, they didn't lose my respect for them by making a genuine attempt to discuss theology without resorting to ludicrous fairytales.

The story of creation is an anachronism, an explanation for simpler times when people's view of the world was a lot more insular. A person can accept that God created the world without having to accept he did it in 7 days and plonked two people in the middle of a big garden.

This is why all religions must evolve, because the longer they cling onto these archaic ideas as fact the more irrelevant they become to society.

The Catholic faith has not changed but has been consistent throughout history. What has changed is Catholic behavior, which is what you just gave examples of.

Whatever. The nature of Catholicism has adapted itself, albeit slowly, as society has evolved.

You do know that God is unchanging? Jesus and God are one. He can not contradict Himself. And on the contrary, it was through Christ's teachings that we know He was divine.

Not really. Christ's teachings are rather impressive and admirable, but they read as no more divine than any other liberal hippy. He was even persecuted by the conservatives of his time for speaking out and because he wanted to reform the religious establishment of the time.

His divinity is fairly irrelevant to his teachings, and as far as I know Christ's divinity was ascribed to him some time after his death.

Those laws no longer apply since they are no longer necessary.

Why is that, I wonder?

 

[MrBishop]

This gets more convoluted with each passing comment.

4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Then He creates the animals, then He creates Woman.
Before Adam, there were no animals on the face of the earth, nor birds in the air, nor fish in the sea. Just prior to Adam, there were no plants either.

Therefore...No neanderthals, no sapiens of any type...nor anything for any potential precursors of homosapiens (with or without souls) to eat, drink or do for that matter.

Right? Therefore...no evolution prior to Adam.

 

[PT]

"perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

It seems to me those words apply to almost any subject if you really want them to.

 

[chcr]

It seems to me those words apply to almost any subject if you really want them to.

Heathen!!! Blasphemer!!! Philis...ack, hack...

*I just can't do it without cracking up*

 

[BeardofPants]

I've never called anyone a "philistine".
*feels strangely bereft

 

[chcr]

I've never called anyone a "philistine".
*feels strangely bereft

I use (well, misuse but no one else knows what it really means anyway) it all the time.

"Janis Joplin? Who's that?"
"Philistine!"

 

[MrBishop]

 

[BeardofPants]

I use (well, misuse but no one else knows what it really means anyway) it all the time.

"Janis Joplin? Who's that?"
"Philistine!"

See, I use "heathen", or "goddamned ignorant cocksucking bastich".

 

[freako104]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

[MrBishop]

See, I use "heathen", or "goddamned ignorant cocksucking bastich".

Blaspheeeeeemer!
Pedestrian!
Ignoaranus!!

 

[MrBishop]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Ximinez:
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...
are such elements as fear, surprise...
I'll come in again.

(Exit and exeunt)

Chapman:
I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

(JARRING CHORD)

(The cardinals burst in)

Ximinez:
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
(To Cardinal Biggles)
I can't say it - you'll have to say it.