Using a baby as a shield - glad that he died!!

Winky said:
Yeah,
just because he was holdin' a babee
it gave him license to shoot as much as he wants
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Nope. He chose to. But the fault was that the cops should not have shot with the child there. But the criminal was just as sick since he used the baby as a shield. The whole situation is fucked.
 
freako104 said:
Cops are supposed to protect life as much as they can. This was way too much. They shouldnt have shot since it could have endangered the child. I feel terrible for her parents
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Not shooting back endangered the civilian they were extracting.
 
Police called in a SWAT team and tried to talk to the man. At one point, as officers helped a neighbor escape, he fired at them and they fired back, police said.
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Doesn't sound like that's when he and his daughter died.
 
Mr. Bishop said:
Its all planning... the cop shouldn't have been hit. Right now, we don't know when he was hit (if it was during the rescue attempt or some other time).
They exchanged fire on several occasions.
They knew that he was armed
They knew where he was
They had plenty of time to 'plan' it and put their people (including the SWAT team) in the right places.
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Clausewitz said:
No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy....
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But apparently not in your tidy little world of absolutes. Next time, we'll be sure to put you in charge. I'm sure you'll do a lot better.
 
HomeLAN said:
But apparently not in your tidy little world of absolutes. Next time, we'll be sure to put you in charge. I'm sure you'll do a lot better.
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Clausewitz was talking about the complications inherent in encounters with large numbers of people involved. Wars, basically. Wars are chaotic at best. Too many people on both sides, sometimes behaving erratically..communications issues, control of troop movements, reactions to first contact, weather, landscape etc etc...

We're talking about 1 opponent with a known location in a 'controlled' area.

From the pics that I've seen...they'd cordoned off the area, they had EMS standing by, they had police and SWAT in situ. Great!

I know that there are no absolutes but there are situations which are trained for. The SWAT people supposedly know what they're doing and have trained in similar situations. That's why they got called in.

My issue isn't with the cops firing back when fired upon. It's that they placed themselves in a situation where they gave up control to the perp.

Its the why and under what circumstances the perp and his daughter zigged when they were expected to zag and got shot, that should be the focus of whatever investigation comes of this.
 
MrBishop said:
Clausewitz was talking about the complications inherent in encounters with large numbers of people involved. Wars, basically. Wars are chaotic at best. Too many people on both sides, sometimes behaving erratically..communications issues, control of troop movements, reactions to first contact, weather, landscape etc etc...
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Anytime you have an armed subject who is uising that firearm, it's complicated enough to qualify. Period.
 
HomeLAN said:
Anytime you have an armed subject who is uising that firearm, it's complicated enough to qualify. Period.
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You can't be right every time, and you can't predict everything...but the more you limit the opponents options, the more right you can be.

...

It is tragic that a little girl died. She died because she had an asshole as a father. I'm glad that he's dead. I wish she hadn't died. That's the whole point about this thread. He deserved to die just for the fact that he used a child as a shield.
 
Professur said:
Don't waste your breath, Steve.
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Its called discussion and debate. People with opposing veiwpoints talking, stating points and rebuttals without insulting each other...you really should try it sometime.
 
freako104 said:
Cops are supposed to protect life as much as they can. This was way too much. They shouldnt have shot since it could have endangered the child. I feel terrible for her parents
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Um, you did read the article, right? Ok, you read the first line or two? You feel sorry for her parents? Oh fuck it, I give up.

It's a tragedy that this girl died, but sadly I have to go with Winky here, mother doesn't sound a whole lot more stable than father was. Basically, we probably just lost a future stripper/whore/goatfucking Internet pornstar.
 
unclehobart said:
Perhaps Freako is taking the cynical route and thinking that homeboy wasn't the real father after all.
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I had assumed he wasnt since no true father would put the life of the kid in danger. A father loves his child no matter what
 
And now it's time for a life lesson. Wrong. Some fathers, and even mothers love drugs and their freedom (not in prison) more than anything.
 
OK, I said I give up, but I lied. Sue me.

freako104 said:
Cops are supposed to protect life as much as they can.
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Exactly what they were doing. Yes, two people died, one of them a child, but how many were saved?


This was way too much.
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source said:
The standoff started when officers were called to an intersection in South Los Angeles west of Watts where Lemos was behaving erratically and aggressively.

He fired at the officers and ran inside a fenced area that included his apartment and his car wash and detailing business. He had a 9 mm handgun and a shotgun and was intoxicated on drugs and alcohol, police said.

Police called in a SWAT team and tried to talk to the man. At one point, as officers helped a neighbor escape, he fired at them and they fired back, police said.
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Tell me, they tried to remove a neighbor and got shot at. They called in a SWAT team, with negotiators, most likely trained negotiators. They spent two hours trying to get him to come out peacefully.(source) How do you propose they should have dealt with this person?

They shouldnt have shot since it could have endangered the child. I feel terrible for her parents
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When you get your badge, and your life and other peoples lives are on the line, then tell me that they shouldn't have shot BACK.

Bish said:
Doesn't sound like that's when he and his daughter died.
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Source said:
Police called in a SWAT team and tried to speak with the man; at one point police tried to help a neighbor escape the area, and Lemos fired at police. Officers fired back.
During the third exchange of gunfire, around two hours after the standoff began, Lemos held his daughter as he shot at police, and officers fired back, killing Lemos and his daughter. An officer was shot in the shoulder.
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It wasn't then. It was later.
Bish said:
300 shots to take down one man??!? Where were the bloody snipers?
Fuckin' free for all shootout and a kid dies for lack of control.
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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and hope that after you've read some other accounts of the incedent you realize they were in control. They did the only thing they could do at the time.

Bish said:
usual policy is to stop firing shortly after the guy is dead... 5 minutes, I think. Anything else is overkill.
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5 minutes? After he's dead? That's overkill?

Just a question here, how many rounds do you think the average person can shoot out of a 9mm service pistol in 5 minutes?

This thing didn't take place in 5 minutes. It took over two hours. But when the final shootout started and one of the cops got hit, it was over quickly. I highly doubt the cops were still firing 5 minutes after the two were dead.

Bish said:
Still...with snipers its one shot, one kill. Hell, even without snipers... wait for the head shot or clear shot and take it...not the situation where every cop around is 'taking the shot' to the point where they don't know who hit, who missed and who hit the kid.
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Now you have a point. Why weren't there snipers stationed to take the shot when it presented itself?
Don't know. Probably a good reason, maybe not.

The "fire at will" ideology is as responsible for killing the kid as the asswipe who used her as a shield.
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"fire at will" ideology? Ever been shot at? I haven't, but I can tell you my ideologys probably wouldn't be playing a real big part in whether or not I'd be shooting back. It's not a "fire at will" ideology here, it's a save your ass, the and the asses of the people around you ideology.
 
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