What ya think about Walken?

You mean a country run by and for wealthy white property owners?
I would like to see a return to the way it was when the voters were those who actually owned land and had a vested interest in this country.
In other words, yes. You could have just said yes. It would have been much more concise and to the point. My earlier suggestion regarding discussion still applies.

Once the vote was given to everyone -- which is NOT a right, although you likely believe it is...
*sigh...*
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
— Fifteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (1870)

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.
— Nineteenth Amendment (1920)

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any
primary or other election . . . shall not be denied or abridged . . . by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
— Twenty-fourth Amendment (1964)

The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of age.
— Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971)

I see your point. Not a right at all. :retard:

As far as democrats and republicans go, I don't really know very many people who think there is any functional difference at all. :shrug:
 
so, then, little old you would not be able to vote in senatorial elections? what about other elections?

what, if anything, would qualify you to vote for president if you're not qualified to vote for a potential senator?

The people -- that would include me as wella s you -- elected their local legislators, their federal representatives, and the president. The local legislature elected the senators.
 
In other words, yes. You could have just said yes. It would have been much more concise and to the point. My earlier suggestion regarding discussion still applies.

I guess in your world there are no non-white land owners who are middle class. My suggestion in response to your suggestion stands as well. Are you writing that dictionary yet?

I see your point. Not a right at all. :retard:

You did a virtual tail stand taking that bait, Flipper.

You have obviously never read past the first section of any of those amendments so you did NOT "see" the point at all. Forest and trees I guess.

AMENDMENT XV

Section 2.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XIX

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XXIV

Section 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XXVI

Section 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The Congress giveth and the Congress taketh away. A CONFERRED right is not a right at all and that is what that caveat in section 2 is all about. It all started with the thirteenth amendment wherein the Congress, for the first time in American history, granted themselves powers that did not emanate from the Supreme Law of the Land; and in so doing they created that power AS the Supreme Law of the Land. Get it?

Congressional power is at the will, behest, and consent of the People. The thirteenth amendment changed that forever.

Also, if voting is a right then why are some people denied that right pursuant to that section 2 caveat?

So you are right that I am right. Thank you.
 
The people -- that would include me as wella s you -- elected their local legislators, their federal representatives, and the president. The local legislature elected the senators.

you're answering a question of logic with a history lesson. try again.
 
I guess in your world there are no non-white land owners who are middle class. My suggestion in response to your suggestion stands as well. Are you writing that dictionary yet?



You did a virtual tail stand taking that bait, Flipper.

You have obviously have never read past the first section of any of those amendments so you did NOT "see" the point at all. Forest and trees I guess.



The Congress giveth and the Congress taketh away. A CONFERRED right is not a right at all and that is what that caveat in section 2 is all about. It all started with the thirteenth amendment wherein the Congress, for the first time in American history, granted themselves powers that did not emanate from the Supreme Law of the Land; and in so doing they created that power AS the Supreme Law of the Land. Get it?

Congressional power is at the will, behest, and consent of the People. The thirteenth amendment changed that forever.

Also, if voting is a right then why are some people denied that right pursuant to that section 2 caveat?

So you are right that I am right. Thank you.
A right isn't a right because you decide it isn't. Clever.

Just as you say though, just as you say...


you're answering a question of logic with a history lesson. try again.

:rofl:
 
In other words, yes. You could have just said yes. It would have been much more concise and to the point. My earlier suggestion regarding discussion still applies.


*sigh...*


I see your point. Not a right at all. :retard:

Sure is funny to see Jim claim to be a Constitutionalist. :laugh:
 
A right isn't a right because you decide it isn't. Clever.

Just as you say though, just as you say...

:rofl:

I tell you that you have a right; but I also retain the power to change that right at any time with the stroke of a pen. Is that a right or merely a conferred privilege which is modifiable at any time at the whim of those who wield the power?

You see, you do not know the difference between a right and a privilege. How is it that the Founders constructed a Bill of Rights which did not have caveats upon the rights enumerated; and yet the Congress, in their infinite wisdom, was unable to do so nearly 100 years later? Because they wanted to vote themselves power; and that was their intent.

Take the Thirteenth Amendment for example, the first amendment where the newly penned "Section 2" appeared:

AMENDMENT XIII
Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.

Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.

Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Conversely, the Congress has also laid the foundation for the repeal of the amendment through mere legislative function. They may modify it to their own liking at any time "by appropriate legislation" to strengthen or weaken it as they see fit. As the winds of politics blow as it were.

What if the congress decided that involuntary servitude was permissible for certain infractions of the law such as a traffic ticket? Or what if they decided that involuntary servitude was required for certain credentials?

In other words, what if one were made to do "public service" for receiving a traffic citation or as a requirement for receiving a diploma of graduation from high school?

Both of those exist at this time at the state level. The only thing lacking is an act of congress making it the national law.

You have a right to pick up litter along the highway and to read to old people at old folks homes -- or else. Remember that "volunteerism" bit that Clinton foisted on the public several years ago? Where do you think that high school diploma requirement came from?

Or how about the Fifteenth Amendment:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not
be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Yet there are those who are barred from voting because their right has been abrogated by "appropriate legislation".

And the Twenty-fourth Amendment:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any
primary or other election . . . shall not be denied or abridged . . . by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

Yet those who have failed to pay their income tax and are convicted are denied the "right" to vote because they failed to pay an "other tax".

You do not, and apparently never will, understand what I am telling you; not because you do not want to but because a person whose politics you dislike is telling it to you and for that it must be discounted and ignored.

Black and white is black and white. The amendments say what they say and there is no changing that fact regardless of who tells it to you. Without Section 2, those amendments would enumerate rights. With section 2, they enumerate ethereal privileges.

Oh, and by the way -- It can't happen here. Keep chanting that over and over and over.
 
you're answering a question of logic with a history lesson. try again.

Only a history lesson will answer that question. Perhaps a short read of the debates and the Federalist Papers would bring you up to speed.

The system wasn't perfect and it was the human element that got us the current system. Read THIS PAGE to see what went wrong and why the constitution was written that way in the first place. It was precisely because of the desire to separate the senators from the pressures of the populace that the legislatures were to be the ones to choose the senators. But look at what has happened since then and how senators have become beholden to the populace. Now they concentrate on greasing palms instead of the business at hand, just like the Founders feared.

Remember, the state legislators are chosen by a vote of the people and those they have chosen to lead their state were the ones who would choose the senators.
 
So, what you're saying is that if there are circumstances under which a "right" may be "abridged or denied," it is therefore clearly not a right at all? Again, clever. :grinyes:

All "rights" are conferred. Any or all of them may be denied at any time at all.

Look, I fully understand where you're coming from. You want to be "right." Fine, clearly you're "right" and I must apologize for having doubted you in any manner whatsoever.

There, better now? Take this tissue and blow. Feel better? Good, lets move on.
 
Only a history lesson will answer that question. Perhaps a short read of the debates and the Federalist Papers would bring you up to speed.

The system wasn't perfect and it was the human element that got us the current system. Read THIS PAGE to see what went wrong and why the constitution was written that way in the first place. It was precisely because of the desire to separate the senators from the pressures of the populace that the legislatures were to be the ones to choose the senators. But look at what has happened since then and how senators have become beholden to the populace. Now they concentrate on greasing palms instead of the business at hand, just like the Founders feared.

Remember, the state legislators are chosen by a vote of the people and those they have chosen to lead their state were the ones who would choose the senators.

thanks jim. i'm quite aware of what you outlined above. you're not the only one here who at least paid partial attention through their high school civics class.

but you're trying to throw yourself a lateral here. remember this?

I would like to see a return to when the Senators of this nation were elected by the individual state's legislatures. Now they are elected by those who don't even know what a senator is but "He's got a D or an R after his name so he must be my kinda guy." (ie: repeal the 17th amendment.)

this statement says "i don't think everyday people are smart enough to discern who should be a senator" more so than what you emphasize in that other quote.
 
The origins thought there needed to be a seperation between the houses. Today there is none. Who was right?
 
The origins thought there needed to be a seperation between the houses. Today there is none. Who was right?

well, if it removes the ability to choose some members of government from the uneducated, unwashed horde... the answer is obvious, right?

the mistake here is the assumption that any one of us doesn't belong to that horde.

and nobody, er, few here are dummies.

some blowhards.

some freaks.

some that cruise rest stops. :la:

but few morons.
 
then I think you don't understand what is being said, because it looks like your
comments almost fit right in with his the way I read it.

He says:

Campaign Finance Reform:
"I believe that campaign finance is a very tough issue, with good points on both sides; but I feel, as a wealthy American, that I should have no more say than even the least fortunate American citizen. Free speech in politics is about the voices of all those who support you, not who supports you with the biggest voice."

I say that there is nothing good about McCain-feingold at all. Campaign finance reform was hoisted by one of the Keating Five fer Christ's sake.

He says:

Military Funding:
"I am a huge supporter of the military. I have always thought of them as our guardians, and when our guardians are making less than the poverty line, and children are suffering because their parents decided to join the military, well, I get very upset. I feel that instead of sending billions to the Pentagon's pet projects, it should go to the troops."

But you cannot defund research and R&D to the detriment of the very people you claim to be wanting to help.

He says:

Stem Cell Research:
"I'd met Chris Reeve several times before he died, and after having met him it is tough to be against [stem cell research]. I am for human knowledge and expansion of human life. If stem cells are one way to do that, I cannot support legislation to restrict this potentially life-saving research."

It is that part about "I cannot support legislation to restrict this potentially life-saving research ..." ie: He would be for legislation to allow fetal or embryonic stem cell research.

The fact remains, and has obviously escaped him completely, that there has never been a single medical breakthrough using fatal or embrionic stem cells. Every breakthrough has been through the use of ADULT stem cells which show the most promise.

Christopher Reeves was a proponent of fetal and embrionic stem cell research.

Again, I enjoy his work as an actor but his politics suck.
 
So, what you're saying is that if there are circumstances under which a "right" may be "abridged or denied," it is therefore clearly not a right at all? Again, clever. :grinyes:

All "rights" are conferred. Any or all of them may be denied at any time at all.

That is why the Second Amendment is in place.
 
That is why the Second Amendment is in place.

Which "confers" rights that may be denied under certain circumstances.

Interesting (but not at all surprising) that you seem to be maintaining that these "rights," which were added in an amendment, are in fact "rights" while other "rights" added in other amendments are not. :shrug: Doesn't seem particularly self-consistent to me. I must be confused. :lol2:
 
Which "confers" rights that may be denied under certain circumstances.

Interesting (but not at all surprising) that you seem to be maintaining that these "rights," which were added in an amendment, are in fact "rights" while other "rights" added in other amendments are not. :shrug: Doesn't seem particularly self-consistent to me. I must be confused. :lol2:

The confusion is your inability to see the meaning of "Section 2" of subsequent amendments. That section gives power where none should exist. The first ten amendments are unambiguous in their meaning and there are no caveats, back doors, or loopholes which confer power to the government.

That all changed starting with the thirteenth amendment.

I guess the question would be: "Are you comfortable with the government having a back door loophole where your rights are concerned?"

I am not.
 
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