What's up with Canada?

[Camelyn]

Perhaps if the modeern day citizens of the allied countries (and other) decided to quit making the USA the scapegoat, blaming us for all the ill's & begin showing some appreciation for how we help everybody everytime something goes wrong & how we don't demand reparations for such then some of us would be less likely to get bent out of shape.

Show my appreciation how, exactly? You want I should send you flowers or something?

No one has criticized US humanitarian efforts, or denigrated the US contribution to victory in both world wars. I *am* however allowed to disagree with US foreign policy, because that is my prerogative. Maybe you all would get less bent out of shape if *you* would make the effort to understand that not every agrees with the way the US handles foreign conflict and policy. And that we are entitled to that opinion. We are *not* required to grovel and make nice out of a sense of gratitude for past and present US accomplishments if we do not agree with these policies. And therein lies the arrogance. Over and over I have heard it said "You should be grateful! You should appreciate what we have done!" Who the hell said we aren't grateful? But since when does being grateful require that I, as a citizen of a foreign country, agree with and support any and all US policies and conflicts?? Did I miss a memo?

The US is an economic and military powerhouse that is pretty much unrivaled. The chances of the US having any kind of aid reciprocated by those they have helped are close to nil, simply because it is not needed. Doesn't mean it ain't appreciated.

Humanitarian aid is supposed to be given without thought of reciprocation, and sometimes, it is even given to those who don't want it for political reasons, and despite threats, protests and violence, simply because it is needed. Ask the UN about that sometime.

As for other US conflicts on foreign soil, well, again, it is my prerogative to disagree with the means, the motive and the necessity for such conflicts, because frankly, my disagreement is all I've got. Most countries are powerless to stop the juggernaut that is the US political and military machine in any foreign conflicts it may see fit to engage in. The UN is supposed to be there to represent these less powerful countries, and was formed for just such a purpose. But how many times has the US steamrolled right over UN objections and gone forward with actions that are deemed inappropriate by a majority UN council?

And you say we should be grateful?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Flowers? That soooo sweet of you, keep your smart assed contempt for yourself.

I’d be pleased as punch if your countrymen didn’t BOOO at our children’s sports teams when they are in your country to play a game.

How about trying to look objectively at the bigger picture; not just the political fodder laid before to you by people so driven by hate and desire for power that they will do and say anything to get it.

1441 meant nothing.

Oil for Fraud. What members of the UN Security Council were receiving money it? What UN executive employees?

How many French weapons made AFTER the sanctions were in place were fired at US soldiers?

The reasons we went into Iraq were as we said. We did what no-one else had the gumption to do.

We have sent people to die on foreign soil more than once; all we have asked in return was the land to bury our dead.

We deserve the respect we have more than earned whether or not you disagree with this situation

"the Evil US".

We are not evil, we are far from it.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

All this blather about the US is arrogant. The US is a bully.

Hitler owned most of Europe and wanted the Isles. France would be a part of Germany today; England would have eventually lost to the newly acquired resources of Germany. There would have been many more civilian casualties during the 'The Battle for England'.
Germany could not have waged war on the US borders for another ~4-8 or more years; he lacked the logistics to wage war here.

Not to impugned the efforts of other nations. With out the might of US resources, the great effort of the civilians, and our will to win; the war would have been lost to Germany.

- - - - - -

As far as today’s conflict goes.

No one has: the collective intelligence capabilities, the military power, and resolve we do for this action. We are not going to bet our lives on the goodness of the enemy. We will not take the chance on letting a cancer grow hoping it will go away by itself.

I was in just getting ready to go to work when my country was attacked by 4 of our own airliners, 3,000 innocent people died that day. We do not need the approval of the UN to make the best effort to prevent it from happening again. We will not look back regret not acting later.

We are doing what we, as a sovereign nation, have the right to do. Iraq was playing with these guys; we have freed millions in the process.

Do better if you can, no one is stopping you.

We are not the world power by accident, we worked hard for it.



(sometimes I disagree with my wife, I don't call her a bitch, ever!)

 

[Camelyn]

Flowers? That soooo sweet of you, keep your smart assed contempt for yourself.

??

Um first off dude, chill. Joke, for Gonz. Funny, hence the smilie. Laugh a little, it'll make you feel better. And neither myself nor my children have ever booed any sports team from any country becaue I think thats crappy-assed sportsmanship and politics don't belong in the arena. And so do most Canadians. But hey, thanks for the prejudegment and attack without knowing my position, much appreciated.

Secondly, You are arguing apples and oranges. If you would take a second to read my post with just the teeniest bit of impartiality and a bit less venom, you might see that. I said I was allowed to disagree with you. I also said that I was grateful to the US for many things, but that didn't mean I had to agree with all its policies, nor keep my mouth shut about it.

You translate this to mean that I disrespect your country? Do you think everyone that disagrees with you disrespects you? And no, I *don't* have to respect policies I disagree with.

Thirdly, my country and shitload of other countries, have sent people to foreign lands to die as well. What's your point?

When did I say evil???

And respect is earned, btw, not demanded.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

OK Camelyn, touche’ we both got excited.

I read your comment as ‘sending flowers’ on Nat’l level in symbolic fashion, not to Gonz (I already know you respect him no matter the twing’s it may cause you) I see nothing else in my post that is an attack upon you.

I am glad you don’t BOO, but stadiums full of people (thus the term ‘countrymen’) have Booed our children and our Nat’l anthem. Neither the anthem nor the children are the policy, policies and politicians change. The Flag, the Song and the people do not.

This thread was originally about the peoples of Canada developing the idea that the US Gov’t is evil. The gov’t is our, we are the people it serves.

This negative attitude is being promoted by the state, in other words politics. Specifically, liberal politics, both US and Canadian.

My Point? Again, not to impugn any other nation . Fine speak-out against the policy, I think the people of my nation have earned the respect.



- - - - - - - -

So, if my mother was born and died (1970) as a Canuki citizen, would that mean that I am . . .

 

[Gonz]

Not only our chilren get treated badly by the citizens of ourt allies'

... usually gets. Overall race leader Lance Armstrong was booed, spat at and insulted by some fans during yesterday's time trial. The ...

... The tense atmosphere, heightened by about 4.9 miles of unfenced roads, reached its peak when some spectators spit at and verbally abused Armstrong. "It's ugly. ...

Cam, let me briefly explain what American see. Most get pissed & quietly put it away in the "another reason to be isolationist" file & some idiots are so blinded by the rhetoric they agree.

[example]The US gave $10,000,000. in cash, medical suplies, food & blankets to aid eartquake victims of Nowhereinparticular. The rest of the worlds countries gave $1,000,000. & some cookies In other news, an American mediacal team offered hope to this cute little Somewhereesleian little girl, offering free hospitalization & surgery to her parents so they could pursue the needed addadicktome operation before there are no more males to further their lineage.
In Olympic news, it has ben suggested that upom winning gold, American teams show no pleasure or raise teh Stars & Stripes because it may offend some against the current administrations oilwar where we don't talk of the fifty million plus that have been freed or show the umpteen million bodies found in mass graves or the sarin gas canisterrs or the building evidence that saddam & usama were lovers & sharing a villa in France with Jaques.
In weather, a cold fromt will pass & it'll warm up...most likely as a result of those spoiled Americans & their SUVs poising the planet & causing a greenhouse affect while we ignore the data that suggests that warming & cooling are completely normal. The malodorous noxious fumes that float thousands of miles from that Amnerican shores & kill livestock in Bangledesh & fish in Bahli while almost undoubtedly killing small children & the elderly in a former lovely land of the great USSR. A plot I'd bet.
Back to news. Tornadoes tore thru Texas & earthquakes killed scores in California & Brazil passed a note thru their ambassador saying "Dude,that sucks." Here, have a bikini. US foreign policy, the ultimate in evil & greed, has struck once again. They told the poor misguided Phillipino & Spanish socialist (what a lovely way to live, socialism where everybody is equal & all get healthcare) governemt that their actions have done nothing but embolden the terrorists to create bigger & uglier scenes. When asked what they thought of the consequences brought forth by tehir actiosn they said if the US & the puppet government in Iraq wanted peace they'd have left well enough alone. "After all, Afghanistan was our target..they were already beaten". said a source close to the government.[/example]

When there's a problem the UN solves it huh? Rwanda, Somalia, the Sudan, Kosovo...some of those nothing whatsoever has been done. The rest had a small contingent of blue helmets. Can you guess which flag on the sleeve was by far the most seen? hint-it wasn't Canada.

 

[Gonz]

Did I miss a memo?

Yes ma'am. It came with this & every mornings awakening to a free (and getting freer) world.

 

[MrBishop]

Quote:
... usually gets. Overall race leader Lance Armstrong was booed, spat at and insulted by some fans during yesterday's time trial. The ...

Quote:
... The tense atmosphere, heightened by about 4.9 miles of unfenced roads, reached its peak when some spectators spit at and verbally abused Armstrong. "It's ugly. ...


Gonz,

They didn't spit on him because he was American...they spat on him because he wasn't French...they would've done the same thing to a Brit, and Aussi or a Cannuck. It's because the race is on French soil, it's usually won by French people and it's part of their national pride.

 

[Gonz]

it's usually won by French people

Not lately

It's still no excuse. Should caucasians spit on negores because of basketball?

 

[freako104]

no. nobody should be spat on.

 

[MrBishop]

Not lately

It's still no excuse. Should caucasians spit on negores because of basketball?

Yeah..this'll make 6 in a row for Armstrong...throwing insult upon injury.

I agree with Freako...nobody should be spat upon...

 

[Camelyn]

OK Camelyn, touche’ we both got excited.

Yep, and I apologize for that.

Now,to go completely off topic for just a second (imagine that!!) Dude! Is that a mounty smiley? Cooooool!

*steals mounty smilie for her own nefarious purposes (least I think its a mounty smiley*

Edited to add (cause i just read it )

Oh and Gonz? Please don't belittle Canadian peacekeeping efforts. I didn't belittle your country's. I just said that humanitarian efforts are given without thought for recompense, and waving them about saying look-see what we did kinda detracts from the spirit in which they are given.

 

[Camelyn]

I searched google and found a link to a transcript of an editorial I recall being talked about, given by a man named Gordon Sinclair (Sr.), a well respected Canadian journalist, and the father of another well respected Montreal journalist, both of whom have unfortunately passed away.

Anyway, just wanted to counter-blance with the idea that the thoughts an opinions of an entire nation are many and varied, and judgment should not be made based on individual news articles taken out of context of reader and veiwer reaction and feedback.

This was originally aired in 1973, btw, which shows you that some things change, while others remain the same. I have my own opinions, about arrogance and foreign policy that I have already hashed out here, and that I believe I am entitled to hold. But you shouldn't equate that with disrespect, because thats making an assumption based on the actions of a few.

"LET'S BE PERSONAL"
Broadcast June 5, 1973
CFRB, Toronto, Ontario
Topic: "The Americans"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

Source

 

[MrBishop]

Don't judge a country by those who get noticed by the press. The press will look for American detractors in Canada because it makes for headline news.

Everyone remembers the booing at the hockey games, but the fire-trucks in Montreal who still fly the American flag are ignored.

Everyone remembers the words of politicans in reference to hard-wood lumber, but the 200 flights to airfields where planes got to land during 911 go forgotten.

Blood donation centers across Canada were forced to tell people to come back later when the volume of Canadians who turned out to donate blood to help the victims of the attacks overwhelmed them.

In 1979, the Canadian Ambassador to Iran, Kenneth Taylor risked his life to save Americans. He managed to smuggle six Americans out of Iran during the hostage crisis using fake Canadian passports.

Everyone remembers the fact that Canadian troops aren't in Iraq, but the fact that our troops were there during the floods in 1997, packing sand-bags and pulling rescue-duty in the USA is quickly forgotten.

We've sent troops down during forest fires, floods and blizzards. We've sent our firefighters, Dr.s, nurses etc..to New York on that fateful day in September, we've sent crops down to help drought stricken farmers etc etc...

We forget the 25,000 Candadian troops in the Korean war (more than the combined remainder of the UN forces *Not including the USA*
We forget the 40,000 Canadian troops that refused our GVT's view on Vietnam and went to war under the American flag.

And while Canada is not involved in Iraq, prayers and wishes for peace and the safety of coalition troops are on the minds and in the hearts of Canadians from coast to coast.

We don't deserve this thread.

 

[Camelyn]

What he said, but so much better than I could

 

[Gato_Solo]

We don't deserve this thread.

Actually, with the way your press is behaving lately, I think this thread is a good idea. Hence the title "What's up with Canada?". Notice, I didn't say, in the title, "Another reason to hate those evil Canucks...", because I know most Canadians are not evil. Misguided by the media and politics, as we are in the US, but not evil...

 

[freako104]

so its ok to say the media is evil

 

[Gato_Solo]

Quote:
... usually gets. Overall race leader Lance Armstrong was booed, spat at and insulted by some fans during yesterday's time trial. The ...

Quote:
... The tense atmosphere, heightened by about 4.9 miles of unfenced roads, reached its peak when some spectators spit at and verbally abused Armstrong. "It's ugly. ...


Gonz,

They didn't spit on him because he was American...they spat on him because he wasn't French...they would've done the same thing to a Brit, and Aussi or a Cannuck. It's because the race is on French soil, it's usually won by French people and it's part of their national pride.

I hate to disagree with you, Bish, but in France, the surest way to get disrespected is to say you are from the US. The only US citizen respected is Jerry Lewis. The French hate the US...period. The fact Lance is winning the Tour is just 'icing on the cake' for them. After all...he wasn't spit on and booed last year.

 

[Camelyn]

I hate to disagree with you, Bish, but in France, the surest way to get disrespected is to say you are from the US. The only US citizen respected is Jerry Lewis. The French hate the US...period. The fact Lance is winning the Tour is just 'icing on the cake' for them. After all...he wasn't spit on and booed last year.

And the French hate french Quebecers even more. Something about "uncouth country bumpkins" and a linquistic embarassment that have bastarzed the purity if the French language. Or something else all warm and fuzzy to that effect

Not pointing out a pattern of ethnocentricity here or anything. Really. Nope, not I.

 

[Gonz]

Don't judge a country by those who get noticed by the press.

Unfortunately, if we waited for good things it'd be awfully silent. From what I see, nobody in Canada gives any more (or less) of a crap for anybody in America & vice versa. We share a humongous border & a general lifestyle. It's not until shit happens that we even notice the other is not us.

Our giving is not for recognition. I point it out since I've grown sick & tired of America bashing. It may be a world sport but it's one I choose not to participate. When I see it I will correct it.