When is abortion the killing of a human being?(read careful)

[HeXp£Øi±]

When is abortion the killing of a human being? Note, i did not say do you think abortion is right or wrong. What i want to know here is, if you think that abortion is ok in some forms, at what point do you think it becomes equal to murder? Notice also this has nothing to do with the law, but rather our own moral understanding. I would ask anyone who takes part in this to please respect others sharing their views. Religious people: People that don't believe in god are not all evil beings loving evil, rather many simply see life as a scientific process and have their own views as to when human life begins. Likewise, non-religious people are not all desperate emotionals believing in god because they fear death but are different people who believe in some greater force for many different reasons. If we refrain from insult, people are more likely to share their feelings honestly. If you feel i've excluded an answer suitable to your view then please speak your mind. The key here is understanding others views that we may progress with wisdom. I'm not all knowing on the subject so i'm doomed to some degree of error. If you feel i've excluded you in the question, well, i simply didn't want to draw this out into three pages.
Take courage.

 

[Gonz]

I don't have time to say anything is fucked so I'll have to pass on this one until the p.m.

 

[unclehobart]

My selection isnt upon the list. Cant vote.

 

[Dave]

I don't have time to say anything is fucked so I'll have to pass on this one until the p.m.

now all we need tonight is a thread "left wing vs. right wing"
(politics, not KFC)

personaly, if the fetus can not survive outside the womb then it isn't murder.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Well what's yours unc? C'mon...i can add it.

 

[Squiggy]

I'm seriously considering aborting my 22 year old son....

 

[Gonz]

I'm seriously considering aborting my 22 year old son....

That, I believe, is called "Walletus Interuptus Moveus your assus outus", not abortion

 

[freako104]

or matricide. i believe its murder if the baby is born and killed before the idea of adoption comes up. if a mother isnt ready that should be first choice. dont get me wrong i am pro choice, but death is so final that it should only be a last resort. wahts more people should fucking assume responsibilty for their actions.

 

[unclehobart]

I'm seriously considering aborting my 22 year old son....

Exactly.. but thats just a little too far. I think the limit should be the 75th trimester, aka 18th birthday. If, like a jury, 12 people can agree that you are a total ass, you should be put down. useable once per decade per person.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Shit...i'd have been dead long ago were anyone permitted to 'abort' me.

 

[RD_151]

Killing can definetly be assessed to have happen at ANY POINT, "murder" is a different matter I guess, depending on how you define it. Further, "human being" complicates the matter, because an embryo isn't EXACTLY a "human being" or is it? This is more of a exercize in sematics, and I tend to try to avoid such debates personally. My personally belief is that you are "killing a human being" at any point, but thats only MY OPINION. You can debate the defintion of human being to complicate the matter, but the operative word, "killing," is still relevent no matter what definitions you choose to attach to the rest of the words. You didn't ask if it was murder, you asked if it was killing, and I say yes, in my opinion its is killing a human being.

The issue of "right" and "wrong" was not mentioned yet, so don't be offened. I didnt make a value judgement, I just stated my opinion.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

The question was "When does abortion become the equivalent of killing a human being".

I think it's safe to say that the human being has great value to us. So when does the 'baby' 'fetus' or whatever you want to call it become as valuable as your best friend or your brother?

 

[Ardsgaine]

You don't have my choice up there either.

Never.

 

[unclehobart]

The question was "When does abortion become the equivalent of killing a human being".

I think it's safe to say that the human being has great value to us. So when does the 'baby' 'fetus' or whatever you want to call it become as valuable as your best friend or your brother?

Then I take it person to person.. cause I dont consider most to be human.

 

[RD_151]

I still stand by my "at any point" answer. Conception is good enough for me. But again, its just my opinion. Assuming I would want to have children now (I don't yet) and my wife was pregnant and someone punched her in the stomach and the pregnancy failed, i would consider that it (human being) was killed. Ok, lets say she fell, to take out value judgements, the fall still killed a human being. Again, this is my opinion, not an accepted standard. I don't think such a thing can exist in this case, but thats another issue, isn't it.

If you have a seed that could grow to be a tree, is killing the seed killing a tree? No, probably not. However, killing a seedling is killing a tree, even though its not a mature tree yet. We speak of killing cells, of killing plants, of killing all sorts of things, but when it is a human being, it must become all philosophical as though human beings are some how more special than anything else. Ok, maybe we feel we are, but we wouldn't have this controversy if we were asking if kiling a seedling was killing a tree. Would we?

People are too emotionally attached to this subject. Its probably a matter of opinion in each case, but we feel a need to PROVE that one opinion is better than another in this particular instance. If we were discussing the tree and the seedling, there would be no debate, we would agree to disagree, I mean those with differing opinions. And everyone would be fine with it.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

"People are too emotionally attached to this subject"

There's really a simple explanation for this. From a religous standpoint many people believe that taking any life god created is murder. Who want's to have murder on their hands? From a purely scientific point of view we are simply equal to every rock and gaseous bubble. Surely an amazing life form but nonetheless of no greater importance than anything else in the universe.

"but when it is a human being, it must become all philosophical as though human beings are some how more special than anything else"

Again logically and scientifically speaking that arguement makes sense, but that theory crumbles when i put a gun to your head. Suddenly life becomes more important than anything. Why?

"If you have a seed that could grow to be a tree, is killing the seed killing a tree?"

Surely a fetus is not an adult human being, but neither is a baby. You could say that a fetus is to a baby like a baby is to an adult. Yet even the most hardcore athiest values a newborn babies life more than an adult. Yes a fetus might not be as matured as an adult or even a baby, but it will be if it's not harmed. Many people around the world react to abortion as if it were the death of a normal valuable human being. So if we remove god and religion from the picture and look at the situation from a scientific perspective, then what makes one persons perspective more valid than another? Aren't we all just equally a part of the universe with no one more important then another? It could even be argued that an anti abortionists reality becomes more valid because they suffer from what they think is the death of a living baby human(regardless of whether it is or not) where as the abortionist might only regards it as tissue.

 

[whoreable]

 

[Jeslek]

Anytime after conception.

 

[RD_151]

It still comes down to a matter of opinion. In this case, science can't deliver us an answer, philosophy can't, and neither can God, unless he wants to make an appearance. So all we are left with is a bunch of opinions. To each his own. If one can have a clear conscience after aborting a fetus, then so be it. If one cannot, than I suggest it be carried full-term. Anyway you look at it, it comes down to opinion.

It all comes down to how you define human being. As i said, its merely an exercize in sematics, with no "real answer," only opinions. If one is religous, say a christian, he can look to his bible and be certain he is correct (or can he?). However, what of someone of another faith, or some atheist? Who is right? Its a matter of opinion or faith, either of which is essentially the same.

 

[MitchSchaft]

and neither can God

I beg to differ.