Without Bush to kick around

Cerise said:
:moon:
Click to expand...

But yer not the boss of me!

brat.jpg
 
spike said:
That may be but you sure don't want to tell us whether you think Palin was lying or ignorant. So which one do you think it was?
Click to expand...


If you can prove that she is lying or ignorant, and cite references to counter the facts that Palin provided in her Facebook entry quoted in post #70, I will consider answering your question.

Satisfactory references would come from the bill itself: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text or news reports that will specify evidence from the bill to interpret that it does not provide for a "death panel."

Otherwise, quit harassing me with your "yes or no/is it or isn't it/does it or doesn't it/ why/why not will you/won't you" question, when so far all the "proof" you have brought is a blog from a writer who cites an Air America radio personality who is also a failed media pundit at the lowest rated tv network on the channel as the final word on the subject.
 
spike said:
That may be but you sure don't want to tell us whether you think Palin was lying or ignorant. So which one do you think it was?
Click to expand...

she's got a marvelous track record of both, but why even bother asking? why sort it out?

she's nothing more than an object of amusement at this point. though that bachman lady is really starting to gain ground on her as most entertaining.
 
Cerise said:
If you can prove that she is lying or ignorant
Click to expand...

"Lie -> "my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care."

There is nothing in the bills resembling this. Therefore she is lying or ignorant.

Which one do you think it is?
 
It is something she made up that is not any bill being discussed. Scare tactics for the stupid.

"my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care."

That was entirely made up. If you can fid any reference to these death panels in any bill being discussed then perhaps you would have an argument that it is not a lie. But there isn't, so it''s a lie.
 
0bama Talks "Death Panel" in NYT Interview

QUESTION:And it’s going to be hard for people who don’t have the option of paying for it.

THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?

I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.

QUESTION:So how do you — how do we deal with it?


THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.
Click to expand...
 
Rationing
(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-shar- 4
ing incurred under the essential benefits pack- 5
age with respect to an individual (or family) for 6
a year does not exceed the applicable level spec- 7
ified in subparagraph (B). 8
(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable 9
level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is 10
$5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a 11
family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded 12
to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year 13
by the annual percentage increase in the Con- 14
sumer Price Index (United States city average) 15
applicable to such year.
Click to expand...

Death Panels
SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE. 11
(a) ESTABLISHMENT.— 12
(1) IN GENERAL.—There is established a pri- 13
vate-public advisory committee which shall be a 14
panel of medical and other experts to be known as 15
the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to rec- 16
ommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced, 17
and premium plans.
Click to expand...

You will do as we say, without question
(A) IN GENERAL.—The commissioner 6
shall, in coordination with States, conduct au- 7
dits of qualified health benefits plan compliance 8
with Federal requirements. Such audits may in- 9
clude random compliance audits and targeted 10
audits in response to complaints or other sus- 11
pected non-compliance.
Click to expand...

PAY UP
‘‘(4) REQUIREMENTS FOR SPECIFIC STAND- 9
ARDS.—The standards under this section shall be 10
developed, adopted and enforced so as to— 11
‘‘(A) clarify, refine, complete, and expand, 12
as needed, the standards required under section 13
1173; 14
‘‘(B) require paper versions of standard- 15
ized transactions to comply with the same 16
standards as to data content such that a fully 17
compliant, equivalent electronic transaction can 18
be populated from the data from a paper 19
version; 20
‘‘(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in 21
order to allow automated reconciliation with the 22
related health care payment and remittance ad- 23
vice;
Click to expand...

You will comply
‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual 20
who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at 21
any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed 22
a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of— 23
VerDate Nov 24 2008 23:22 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00167 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLS168
•HR 3200 IH
‘‘(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross in- 1
come for the taxable year, over
Click to expand...

and finally, for now....

LADIES & GENTLEMEN, boys & girls of all ages, I present to you the monster called government...

The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax
Click to expand...
 
Thios one needs its own special post
‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii)
may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions.
Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items—

‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;

‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;

‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and

‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.’
Click to expand...

Sorry, Gramma, you're too old. Here, take the red pill.
 
spike said:
Hey there it is. That optional end of life counseling which in no way resembles what Palin described.
Click to expand...



And this "independent group" does what for the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives?

Hint: whatever their lord and master tells them to do. :shrug:

Considering that 0bamacare would be severely rationed, and that the chronically ill and those at the end of their days account for 80% of the medical costs, why not force them to undergo "end of life counseling" in anticipation of being denied care and tucked away into a hospice on pain medications to die before their time. :shrug:

"Death Panel." That's what Zero was refering to, that's what Palin correctly called it, and that is what has been taken out of the bill.

Deny it all you want, call it anything else that makes you feel better about it and that POS administration.

You know, your GF would probably have to undergo the same kind of counseling. In light of the high cost of the monthly script bill that you so generously pay, she must have some kind of chronic condition, right? I can't remember if you've ever mentioned what she has. You really think 0bamacare would cover her?


So why do you support her lying to you again Cerise?
Click to expand...

I told you I'd only answer you if you could cite references to counter these sources:

[1]see: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18280675/Principles-for-Allocation-of-Scarce-Medical-Interventions
[2]see: http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/white-house-adviser-backs-off-rationing/

[1] See http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...-palin-death-panels-wild-representations.html.
[2] See http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
[3] See HR 3200 sec. 1233 (hhh)(1); Sec. 1233 (hhh)(3)(B)(1), above.
[4] See HR 3200 sec. 1233 (hhh)(1)(E), above.
[5] See http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
[6] See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...80703043.html].
[7] Id.
[8] See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...81002455.html].
[9] See http://www.nysenate.gov/press-release/letter-congressman-henry-waxman-re-section-1233-hr-3200.
[10] See http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Where_Civic_Republicanism_and_Deliberative_Democracy_Meet.pdf
[11] See http://www.scribd.com/doc/18280675/Principles-for-Allocation-of-Scarce-Medical-Interventions.

So far, I haven't heard a peep.
 
Cerise said:
And this "independent group" does what for the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives?
Click to expand...

Let them know what their options are. Do they want to remain on life support or not. Maybe tell them how to create a living will.

"my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care."

Nothing in any bill proposed has anything resembing that in it. Palin was lying in a transparent attempt to use scare tactics and mislead the public.

She's a liar...or then again possibly just extremely ignorant.

also none of your sources show anything in the bill that resembles her description.

Insurance companies currently ration care and might have some death panels though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top