173 People Killed in Madrid Explosions

AlladinSane

Well-Known Member
Gonz said:
Now we have a why...
At the beginning of the 11th century, three quarters of Spain's population was Muslim but, as soon as the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella completed the reconquest of the country for Christianity, the Muslims were ordered out.

The humiliation has never been forgotten in the Arab world.


Telegraph

Hey I have a great idea. Why the UN don't split the region in two and gives half to the Moors and half to the spanish. Well, not actually, rather 55/45%, then they proclaim they're now two countries and must live in peace. I'm a genius...
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
AlladinSane said:
Hey I have a great idea. Why the UN don't split the region in two and gives half to the Moors and half to the spanish. Well, not actually, rather 55/45%, then they proclaim they're now two countries and must live in peace. I'm a genius...[/QUOTE]

They'd have to worry about the Basque's wanting their cut of the pie...er...country as well. and the Cattelanos too...

It'd get too complicated. Much easier to elect a socialist GVT and try and drive the Moors out of the country altogether..for the sake of security, that is.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
I've got a better idea...keep the UN out of it. They drew up the ridiculous middle East maps didn't they (League of Nations)?


So, al-qaeda claims credit, the population decides to run scared & elects a socialist government which will "attempt to work it out" with terrorists. This, giving the bad guys a much needed win in Europe. Even Schröder has decided to get tough. None of it compares to
Rome-AP -- The U-S war on terrorism is coming under more criticism in Europe.

The European Commission's president says the Bush administration's battle against terror has been a failure.

Romano Prodi also tells an Italian newspaper (La Stampa) that combatting terror requires "diplomacy and politics" -- and "not just military action."

He says the bomb attacks that killed more than 200 in Madrid last week have shown that "the American recipe wasn't right."

Prodi said he believes the U-S is moving closer to the European attitude -- rather than the other way around -- when it comes to dealing with terrorism.

Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

:lol:
 

AlladinSane

Well-Known Member
I think they're just questioning the validity of her government's support to an useless military operation...
 

chcr

Too cute for words
1. Gonz, the League of Nations had no relationship whatsoever to the UN. You're right about the borders though. I read somewhere once that the British actually had people out surveying and drawing lines in the sand. :lol:

2. AlladinSane, you may be right, but I fear this still sends a message to terrorists that they can affect the outcome of an election, and therefore a countries policies.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
The LoN was the useless predecessor to the useless UN. Since I'm unsure of the year the "new" lines were drawn or who drew them (besides the Brits).... :shrug:

OK Noite, using your premise, from this day forth, terrorists worldwide can create havoc days before an election to adjust the way they want the vote to proceed. That is all that was learned from Spain. The polls showed a conservative win until this happened.


The terrorist won.
 

HomeLAN

New Member
chcr said:
2. AlladinSane, you may be right, but I fear this still sends a message to terrorists that they can affect the outcome of an election, and therefore a countries policies.

No fearing about it. It DOES. The Spanish have just guaranteed decades of increased terrorist activities in Europe and the US. After all, it worked once....
 

chcr

Too cute for words
HomeLAN said:
No fearing about it. It DOES. The Spanish have just guaranteed decades of increased terrorist activities in Europe and the US. After all, it worked once....
I hope you're wrong but I think you're right.

The LoN failed because the little guys didn't think they had enough power. Does giving them too much hamstring the UN? :shrug:
 

AlladinSane

Well-Known Member
chcr said:
2. AlladinSane, you may be right, but I fear this still sends a message to terrorists that they can affect the outcome of an election, and therefore a countries policies.
Well if they hadn't step in there(Iraq) would be no trouble at all. I agree that it may sign an undesirable sense of power to the terrorists, but it's a rock and a hard place. What was the other option? Relying on an error just to not give them the sweet taste? Damned of you do damned if you don't...
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
Gonz said:
OK Noite, using your premise, from this day forth, terrorists worldwide can create havoc days before an election to adjust the way they want the vote to proceed. That is all that was learned from Spain. The polls showed a conservative win until this happened.


The terrorist won.

Actually, Aznar's goverment lost, because they risked too much just to be in the picture with Bush. Spaniards didn't agree with that (or at least the ones I know), so Aznar's party had to get out of the office.

It was just a matter of time.

Edit:
By your premise, before sept 11, everything seemed to be nice, but after that day your gvmnt did a lot of changes, therefore, terrorists can influence the policies of your country as well...........terrorists won :rolleyes:
 

HomeLAN

New Member
Luis G said:
By your premise, before sept 11, everything seemed to be nice, but after that day your gvmnt did a lot of changes, therefore, terrorists can influence the policies of your country as well...........terrorists won :rolleyes:

You've got a point there. It's one of the (many) reasons that the Patriot Act is the biggest load of crap ever foisted off on the US public, and one of the (many) reasons I won't vote for Bush again.

The changes made here, however, seem to be pointed at eliminating terrorists. The Spanish voter (IMO) seem to want to appease them. When their stated goal is conversion of the entire world to radical Islam, appeasement ain't going to work.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Luis G said:
Actually, Aznar's goverment lost, because they risked too much just to be in the picture with Bush. Spaniards didn't agree with that (or at least the ones I know), so Aznar's party had to get out of the office.

It was just a matter of time.

The polls showed a probable win by the sitting government ( I saw this somewhere & don't recall where) before the train attacks. It was after the terrorism that the government got changed by an emotional electorate. The elections probably should have been postponed. They weren't & now the Spanish gov't is an open target.
 

Luis G

<i><b>Problemator</b></i>
Staff member
HL, you too have a point, actions taken by the US were towards the elimination of terrorists, but it still influenced the lives of every citizen in the US. Sucks innit?, it would seem like terrorists always accomplish the goal of placing the seed of fear and terror.

Gonz, from what i've read on other forums (where a lot of spaniards post), is that they didn't vote for the Aznar party mainly because they hid the truth from them, they would have been comfortably knowing that they had the balls to go to war with Iraq (even thou most of them didn't agree) and the balls to publicly accept that the attacks were on Alqaeda's behalf because of such support to the US. But they seemed to chicken out when the time came, and they tried to confuse the people with misinformation (aka ETA did it), wouldn't you do the same as the spanish people?
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Does it matter whether the carnage in Madrid last week was the act of the Basque terrorist organization ETA or of Al Qaeda? Of course there are important differences between the two. ETA is a local organization, Al Qaeda a global one. The former is secular, the latter religious. But they have something in common that is revealing about the nature of terrorism. Both groups had a political agenda, but as their political cause has lost steam, they are increasingly defined almost exclusively by a macabre culture of violence.

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"The purpose of terrorism," Vladimir Lenin once said, "is to terrorize." Like much of what he said, this is wrong. Terrorism has traditionally been used to advance political goals. That's why a rule of terrorists used to be: "We want a few people dead and a lot of people watching." Terrorists sought attention, but didn't want to make people lose sympathy for their cause. Yet with many terrorist groups—like ETA, like Al Qaeda—violence has become an end in and of itself. They want a lot of people dead, period.

Some in Spain have argued that if indeed Al Qaeda proves to be the culprit, then Spaniards will blame Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar. It was his support for America and the war in Iraq, they say, that invited the wrath of the fundamentalists. But other recent targets of Islamic militants have been Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, not one of which supported the war or sent troops into Iraq in the afterwar. Al Qaeda's declaration of jihad had, as its first demand, the withdrawal of American troops from Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden does not seem to have noticed, but the troops are gone—yet the jihad continues. The reasons come and go, the violence endures.

The Middle East scholar Gilles Kepel makes an analogy between communist groups and Islamic fundamentalists. In the 1940s and 1950s, communist groups were popular and advanced their cause politically. By the 1960s, after revelations about Stalin's brutality, there were few believing communists in Europe. Facing irrelevance, the hard-core radicals turned to violence, hoping to gain attention and adherents by daring acts of bloodshed. Thus the proliferation of terror by groups like the Red Brigades and the Baader-Meinhof gang. Similarly, for decades Islamic fundamentalists tried to mount political opposition in Arab countries. Frustrated by failure, they have become terror machines and nothing more.

ETA follows this pattern. Having been founded to protest the brutal suppression of the Basques under Franco's reign, it floundered as Spain became democratic and provided the Basques with increasing levels of autonomy. Almost every demand of Basque nationalists has been met over the past decade. Basques run their own region, collect their own taxes, have their own police, speak their own language, broadcast their own television and radio programs. As a result, support for ETA is down to 5 percent at most. In fact, support for Basque nationalism has waned considerably.

It is in this context that ETA announced in 2000 the "reactivation of armed struggle." In the next two years it launched 87 bombings and assassinations, in which 38 people were killed. But because of effective police work by Spain and France, ETA's attacks dropped to 20 in 2002, with five deaths, and so far this year there have been 17 hits, in which three people were killed.

In the past ETA hit only Spanish politicians, policemen and other symbols of Spanish rule. Now it indiscriminately targets civilians. In its region, it murders Basques who dare speak out against secession, creating a pervasive atmosphere of fear. "Violence has become ETA's main rationale," a former separatist who renounced ETA long ago told the Financial Times last year. "The exercise of violence creates antibodies. ETA's new recruits can digest barbaric acts that would have been unthinkable under Franco: the torturing of town councillors, the killing of children, of traffic wardens and local policemen. ETA is now led by its most extreme elements, those who are prepared to go furthest in all this senseless killing."

ETA's goal—the creation of a single Basque nation—is not as fantastical as is Al Qaeda's dream of a restored Islamic caliphate. But given that part of the Basque lands it wants to unify are in France, and none of the French Basques has any interest in this plan, it is utterly unrealistic. The goal is a charade, an excuse for bloodletting.

Spanish authorities have estimated that the number of diehard ETA activists is well under 100. Most estimates of active Qaeda operatives are in the hundreds. Technology means that small numbers can still do great harm—as last week's tragedy amply illustrates. But that should not obscure the reality that the violence is a sign of weakness.

Write the author at [email protected].

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.

Source...

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AlladinSane

Well-Known Member
Luis G said:
Gonz, from what i've read on other forums (where a lot of spaniards post), is that they didn't vote for the Aznar party mainly because they hid the truth from them, they would have been comfortably knowing that they had the balls to go to war with Iraq (even thou most of them didn't agree) and the balls to publicly accept that the attacks were on Alqaeda's behalf because of such support to the US. But they seemed to chicken out when the time came, and they tried to confuse the people with misinformation (aka ETA did it), wouldn't you do the same as the spanish people?
I don't think he would do the same. After all, the Bush administration lied abou WMDs and he still supoort them...
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
You will not convince me, without hard evidence that Bush lied about WMDs. He may have been misinformed, that's still to be determined. I honestly believe he believes. He has too, saddam used them.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Here's the hard way to win the war on terror

MADRID, Spain - At least three suspects in the Madrid railway bombings blew themselves up Saturday as police prepared to storm their apartment. One special forces agent was killed in the explosion and 15 police officers were wounded.

The blast in Leganes, a southern suburb of Madrid, blew out part of the exterior walls on the first and second floors of the brick apartment building.

Police had approached the building at around 7 p.m. to make arrests as part of an escalating manhunt for those responsible for the March 11 bombings that killed 191 people and wounded more than 1,800.

The suspects spotted the police from a window and shot at them, chanting loudly in Arabic, the Interior Ministry said. No police officers were hurt by the gunfire.

Over the next two hours, police evacuated as many people as they could from the building and surrounding area and prepared for an assault on the apartment.

"The special police agents prepared to storm the building and when they started to execute the plan, the terrorists set off a powerful explosion, blowing themselves up," Interior Minister Angel Acebes said.

"There are three that could have blown themselves up, but the possibility of more is not ruled out," he said.
 
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