Another war we're losing....

[Professur]

You do not, however know much about the science of the disease itself and treatment, or what works and what doesn't, nor do you have any first hand experience about what it's like.

Again, you make assumptions you can't back up.

 

[markjs]

Maybe it's because I don't have "an addictive personality" but I simply don't see why I should have any sympathy for someone that can not control themselves.

Now before you attack me, Mark, I am not saying that we should throw "addicts' to the wolves but I really don't believe their treatment should be my issue nor do I think my tax dollars should pay for it.

So your tax dollars should be spent on prisons? Again if any of you studied the matter before spouting off with ridiculous opinions on how to handle a problem you really don't understand in the first place, you'd see that treatment works a LOT more often than prison does.

What I am getting from you all is, let's just punish the problem, regardless of the fact that it doesn't work, doesn't benefit society, and use taxpayer dollars to do it. Nevermind the fact that when addicts get out of prison they go right back to drugs and crime. If treatment works and prison doesn't where are those tax dolalrs better spent? Prison is nothing more than schooling to become a better criminal. I've done treatment and I've done time, in the end I was much better served by treatment.

Nobody is asking you to have sympathy, rather I am asking you to try and understand what you are talking about before you try and come up with an answer for it. Also I am asking you to try and solve the problem rather then just getting it out of sight and out of mind only to come back and haunt you later. there are a number of people I have known that went into prison as drug addicts with a treatable disease that came out institutionalized criminal hard cases that I guarantee you you don't want back in society after that kind of education.

And BTW professur, any good cop will tell you the best way to catch a criminal is to understand how he thinks.

 

[tonksy]

So your tax dollars should be spent on prisons? Again if any of you studied the matter before spouting off with ridiculous opinions on how to handle a problem you really don't understand in the first place, you'd see that treatment works a LOT more often than prison does.

What I am getting from you all is, let's just punish the problem, regardless of the fact that it doesn't work, doesn't benefit society, and use taxpayer dollars to do it. Nevermind the fact that when addicts get out of prison they go right back to drugs and crime. If treatment works and prison doesn't where are those tax dolalrs better spent? Prison is nothing more than schooling to become a better criminal. I've done treatment and I've done time, in the end I was much better served by treatment.

And if you had bothered to read or pay attention to my posts you would have seen where I am for the legalization of drugs just so that my tax dollars do not have to pay for incarceration based on drug use.

Nobody is asking you to have sympathy, rather I am asking you to try and understand what you are talking about before you try and come up with an answer for it. Also I am asking you to try and solve the problem rather then just getting it out of sight and out of mind only to come back and haunt you later. there are a number of people I have known that went into prison as drug addicts with a treatable disease that came out institutionalized criminal hard cases that I guarantee you you don't want back in society after that kind of education.

How the hell do you know what I know of drug use and abuse? You are not the only person who's life it has touched. I personally never let drugs control me but it most assuredly doesn't mean that I don't know folks who have.

 

[markjs]

How the hell do you know what I know of drug use and abuse? You are not the only person who's life it has touched. I personally never let drugs control me but it most assuredly doesn't mean that I don't know folks who have.

Never said it didn't touch your life or that you had no experience with it, what I am saying is that I spent my entire adult life being an addict, dealing with addicts, and two years in college plus practical experience in treating the problem. Can any of you honestly tell me you've actually spent any real time studying the problem more than a few cursory web searches?

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Would it surprise you to know I held a job the entire time I was shooting meth?

Yes, it would shock me right out of my skin. Because of the dozens upon dozens upon dozens I've had to deal with, not one could hold an application much less a job. I had one who worked as a dishwasher in a nicer restaurant for almost two months before his chronic absenteeism got him fired. he was the best of the lot in that regard. The meth simply wouldn't allow them to concentrate enough to work, and the binges kept screwing up their time schedule. So yeah, I'd be might damn impressed if I ever found one capable of much of anything productive.

You like to speak (on this and other topics) from personal experience. I have not a single problem with that...find it enlightening in fact. But you gotta remember, to do so and keep credibility, you must allow others to do the same in kind. While I have experimented with this drug and that from time to time, I don't claim to know everything about that world. I come from the opposite approach. I have to deal with not only the addicts who get busted, but with their families, the people they stole from, their kids and their attendant social workers, and so on. That colors my perspective every bit as much as your binge living colors yours. One is as valid as the other. So can the "you can't say because you haven't been there" speech. I've heard it daily for over 12 years now. What I HAVE seen are the things so many addicts choose not to see...the damage they do to those who love them the most. Twelve steps be damned, it takes a little more than token apologies and regimented rehearsed lip service to undo that.

 

[markjs]

And the idea of "letting drugs control you" is preposterous. It's as bogus as the argument that homosexuality is a conscious choice (I realize some folks here still believe that in spite of the sheer lunacy). Once a person crosses that line into alcoholism or addiction they can't just get control back, it's over, they have two choices, go on the the bitter ends (jails, institutions, or death) or abstain completely and find some form of recovery. It's not a conscious choice to let drugs control you, the vary nature of the disease requires that one be in denial, they are going to be controlled by drugs and honestly believe it isn't so. You may know drunks or addicts who will openly admit it, but if they are still drinking or using they are at least to themselves still under the illusion that they can control it to some extent. To fully understand the dire straights one is in and admit it to onesself completely is to know that you need help and to get off it.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

A question for you S&P, what's your opinion on drug courts?

I have no personal experience in them. I have read reports from districts that utilize them, and it's like every other approach in the field: one camp loves them (and votes a certain ticket), another sees numerous flaws in them (and votes the opposite ticket). So having no first-hand experience in them, I do not have an opinion either way.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Mark, I think it's obvious to everyone, addict or not, that the only truly effective method of attack it to stop it before it starts. Make that serious time and a record ... and you'll stand a better chance of keeping it outta the hands of first timers.

Frankly, hardcore users unable to stop simply need to be removed from the general populace. I think that's what Luis was getting at. He wasn't talking getting them off their addiction.

My points exactly. Control your own behavior, or be willing to accept the consequences. Nobody puts a gun to anybody's head and makes them do dope. It's a choice. It also happens to be illegal. I don't see anybody advocating for leniency for first time sex offenders. Why should this be any different? You knew meth was illegal when you started. You made the choice to do it anyway. That in and of itself shows a disregard for not only your health well being and safety but for mine and anyone else's who crosses your path. Hence, lock 'em up.

And I am very much aware of how much dope there is in the penal system and how it gets there. Another crutch of an argument some folks love to use. If enough people are locked up long enough, there will be a significant decrease in profits to the dealers, as all their customers will be in jail. Yes it'll take time. I got time.

 

[markjs]

As a matter of fact S&P that is indeed true, I was a newspaper delivery driver for over a year in the midst of using meth, and I never missed a day. I did a few late deliveries, and had others help me get the job done, but honestly I never missed a day. I got nuts after I cleaned up and kind of harrassed this guy who tried to get me fired, I tried to get him to pick a fight with me unsuccessfully and got pulled over at gunpoint as a result. That's how I lost the job, after that I relapse a short while (a month or so)and ended up getting a DUI, and I've been clean ever since.

I am not trying to say that people don't have experience with this. What I am saying is that they haven't studied the problem in depth near to the extent you or I have. I respect your opinion because you have to actually deal with this problem on a daily basis. And on the matter of the 12 steps, we are supposed to make amends, to me that means much more than an apology, it means financial amends and living right over a period of time to make right what one can as best as one can. I have worked all 12 steps, but step 9 is a lifelong effort, they all are for that matter, but there is no more effective way to recover from addiction that I know of than the 12 steps.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Well if any of you studied the problem at all you'd see that mandatory treatment, and by that I mean long term programs, are far more effective than criminal prosecution, but by all means lock everyone up! Yeah that solves it! I mean out of site out of mind right? It costs the taxpayer bigtime and makes the addict a criminal, making it harder for them to get out and rehabilitate, get a job, all that stuff, then guess what? They re-offend and end up back in prison on the taxpayers dime.

Treat 'em while they're locked up.

Next.

 

[Professur]

I am not trying to say that people don't have experience with this. What I am saying is that they haven't studied the problem in depth near to the extent you or I have.

So you're read all our resumes, have you? Send me a copy of mine, willya?

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

there is no more effective way to recover from addiction that I know of than the 12 steps.

Different things work for different people. A confirmed atheist would never be able to do the twelve because of their nonbelief in any higher power.

12 steps work for some, but not all, and to my experience not for most. I know a lot of people who attend AA and NA for the sole purpose of hooking up with a connection.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

And the idea of "letting drugs control you" is preposterous. It's as bogus as the argument that homosexuality is a conscious choice (I realize some folks here still believe that in spite of the sheer lunacy).

Put me down as the charter member of the "it's a choice" brigade by the way. As I have said on here many times.

 

[markjs]

I have a lot of experience with drug courts. I have seen several people who are in the NA program that got there from drug court. For those who don't know drug court is a program where a person with felony counts can enter drug court, which is a very rigid type of probation where the participants must do treatment, random UAs on a daily call in basis (and they are witnessed so it's near impossible to cheat), and meet once weekly in court to discuss how things are going for them. It's a 2 year program (it can be extended if a client relapses but doesn't get kickedf rom the program) and a lot of people violate and end up going to prison, but I know personally quite a number who went in thinking that they'd get high as soon as they cleared it, and ended up staying clean willingly by the end. In our county it's been a VERY successful program. If a drug court client completes drug court successfully the felony charges are thrown in the trash by the prosecutor ina ceremony at the courthouse where they also show before and after pictures as a slideshow, and give the graduates a framed version. I have been to one graduation and it's quite inspiring.

BTW S&P the AA and NA programs, if taken seriously are all about accountability and taking responsibilty. Unfortunately most people don't actually work the steps, and a lot are just abstinent, still abstinent is better than using, but if one works the program as it's written and makes true amends, then they have learned to become accountable.

 

[markjs]

Different things work for different people. A confirmed atheist would never be able to do the twelve because of their nonbelief in any higher power.

12 steps work for some, but not all, and to my experience not for most. I know a lot of people who attend AA and NA for the sole purpose of hooking up with a connection.

You must admit you know the worst of the worst though, A great many of the people who attend AA and NA didn't get there through the system and it's working for them. Statistically it is very effective. And to debunk the athiest theory, I know personally of two athiests in the program who both have long term clean and sober time, they simply have a different concept of "higher power" than most.

 

[chcr]

there is no more effective way to recover from addiction that I know of than the 12 steps.

Actually, the AA releases no statistics but independent study shows that they have a success rate of around 5%-7%. Interestingly, people who quit cold turkey, with no support system whatsoever have a success rate of around 5%-7%. Kinda interesting, huh?

Note that this info is probably fifteen or more years out of date but I'll bet a shiny new dime that it hasn't changed at all.

 

[markjs]

Treat 'em while they're locked up.

Next.

See that's sensible, but to the average person they are like prison is for punishment, not rehabilitation.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

You must admit you know the worst of the worst though, A great many of the people who attend AA and NA didn't get there through the system and it's working for them. Statistically it is very effective. And to debunk the athiest theory, I know personally of two athiests in the program who both have long term clean and sober time, they simply have a different concept of "higher power" than most.

Did I mention my prior employment before going into probation work? I was a mental health therapist in a major city. My specialties were working with chronic schizophrenics, homeless substance abusers, and dangerously ill individuals. Sometimes I got lucky and found all three in the same person. So yeah, I've been in both intellectual camps when it comes to substance abuse treatment. One is every bit as effective as the other, and neither of them have any reason to crow all that much. That's why, for me it comes down to protecting me and mine. Jail does that a lot better than anything else.

 

[tonksy]

All I am saying is that I played with a quite a few illicit substances in my day and never once did I lose control of myself or my responsibilities. Perhaps my chemical makeup varies from most people although I highly doubt it.

 

[2minkey]

Did I mention my prior employment before going into probation work? I was a mental health therapist in a major city. My specialties were working with chronic schizophrenics, homeless substance abusers, and dangerously ill individuals.

wow that musta been a drain. my old roommate used to handle all the acute psych cases that showed up at the ugliest hospital in detroit. she was usually pretty wiped out at the end of the day... but not nearly as upset as the pediatric medical examiner who co-taught my forensics class. he got to do the autopsies on all the dead, discarded kids they found in the city...