Another war we're losing....

Cerise

Well-Known Member
Soooooo, with all this talk of addiction and recovery, how does the idea of legalization fit in?

th_scarface.jpg


I believe the OP suggested it was the *only real alternative* to prosecuting drug users, dealers, and those who grow, process, or manufacture it.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
well if drugs were legal and much cheaper, it would cut down on drug-related crime i'd imagine, and the weenies who succumbed to addiction would likely die off sooner...

so that don't sound so bad....
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
well if drugs were legal and much cheaper, it would cut down on drug-related crime i'd imagine, and the weenies who succumbed to addiction would likely die off sooner...

so that don't sound so bad....

how do you figure that? They'd still be whoring and stealing ... to pay the pharmacist. They'd still OD and still share needles, drive stoned. Only now, they'd be able to blame the gov't for enabling them. They wouldn't be able to get any more drugs than they can now ... so how would they die off any faster?
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
'specially as they're the official flower of Canadian Remembrance Day. You'd have them on every soldier's grave and memorial.
 

markjs

Banned
I know dozens if not hundreds of alcoholics and reformed alcoholics. I played guitar in bars for 25 years. I've been an AA sponsor, I've seen AA help people and fail to help people. It's the people, and not the AA that makes the difference. Why are so many recovering addicts so self-righteously defensive about it? I read three different studies twenty years ago (I was sponsoring two friends at the time and one pointed out that he'd decided it was bullshit) and so started going to the meetings myself. I stopped recommending it to people and drew my own conclusions. Put it this way. If you want to stop you'll stop, regardless of "steps" or "programming" or whatever. If you don't want to stop you won't. You are in control of yourself (whether or not you want to believe it). It's simply a matter of being able to exercise said control. I understand that some people can't and need help to be able to do this. AA doesn't even try to help, IMO. These are simply opinions Mark. I understand that you have a different one. It's wrong, of course, but I'll understand if you feel differently. ;)

Just as an aside, the "bullshit" guy never drank again to my knowledge. Still plays bass in bars around Tucson too.

Edit: BTW, one huge problem I have with AA type programs is that there are, in fact, recovered addicts and/or alcoholics, not just recovering ones.

I answered this and found references to the study I was talking about, did you even read my post?


The newer study suggest that it is you who is wrong. I know, without a doubt that if someone sincerely works the program that it works. Of course if someone doesn't do what is suggested it will fail. And just because somebody decides its bullshit and stays dry for many years doesn't mean it is bullshit.

The program isn't really about staying sober, thats the first key to it, but its about a new way to live that works for literally millions.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
how do you figure that? They'd still be whoring and stealing ... to pay the pharmacist. They'd still OD and still share needles, drive stoned. Only now, they'd be able to blame the gov't for enabling them. They wouldn't be able to get any more drugs than they can now ... so how would they die off any faster?

Only now, you'd be able to tax the living shit out of it and use said money to mount a campaign (like the anti-tobacco folks) to minimize and demonize it's use. Again, the anti-tobacco people have shown us a way that works, haven't they?

Is tobacco still legal? Just checking...
 

2minkey

bootlicker
how do you figure that? They'd still be whoring and stealing ... to pay the pharmacist. They'd still OD and still share needles, drive stoned. Only now, they'd be able to blame the gov't for enabling them. They wouldn't be able to get any more drugs than they can now ... so how would they die off any faster?

drugs are expensive because of restiricted supply. people get shot over things that are expensive.

open up the supply and... why would anyone whore for something that's not $100 for 3.5 grams or whatever that shit costs these days...

so with chcr's example - hey, maybe there are some cigarette whores out there, but i'm sure there's a few more people out there who've sucked cock for meth...
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
I know, without a doubt that if someone sincerely works the program that it works. Of course if someone doesn't do what is suggested it will fail.

The same can be said for any program/marketing ploy/advertising campaign ever conceived, mark. The exact same. It's called a loophole. That way they don't have to guarantee anything, nor perform to any standard, or anything like that. If our _______ doesn't work for you, it's because you didn't do it right.

AA works for some. It fails for some. Cold turkey works for some and fails for some. If a method works for the individual, it's a success for that individual. No guarantees about the next schmuck through the door.
 

Inkara1

Well-Known Member
Only now, you'd be able to tax the living shit out of it and use said money to mount a campaign (like the anti-tobacco folks) to minimize and demonize it's use. Again, the anti-tobacco people have shown us a way that works, haven't they?

I wouldn't say so, judging by the number of people my age who smoke, despite being bombarded with anti-smoking ads for their entire lives.
 

chcr

Too cute for words
I wouldn't say so, judging by the number of people my age who smoke, despite being bombarded with anti-smoking ads for their entire lives.

A hell of a lot less of them than did when I was your age Inky. Probably seems like a lot to you but very nearly everyone smoked when I was in my twenties.

It works but nothing is perfect.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
drugs are expensive because of restiricted supply. people get shot over things that are expensive.

open up the supply and... why would anyone whore for something that's not $100 for 3.5 grams or whatever that shit costs these days...

so with chcr's example - hey, maybe there are some cigarette whores out there, but i'm sure there's a few more people out there who've sucked cock for meth...


Obviously you've not bought prescription drugs recently. I wasn't aware of any shortage of penicillin, insulin, or any one of the hundreds of compounds ingested daily by honest folk without insurance ...who have to often make the decision between medication and rent. Viagra costs about $20 a hit ... the shelves are full. Drugs are expensive because people will pay what they think it's worth. Noone's carrying a colon full of coke condoms across the border for 2% profit. They're looking at several thousand percent markup. You think that's supply and demand? When's the last time you couldn't get a hookup? Your dealer told you he was out until his mule came in thursday .... and you couldn't get any from the guy on the next corner.

Mark, stop acting like we're all stupid.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
wait i think i remember a miami vice episode where crockett and tubbs investigated a bunch of lipitor-fueled drive-by shootings.
 

markjs

Banned
By Ethan Nadelmann said:
THINK AGAIN: DRUGS

Published in Foreign Policy (US)
By Ethan Nadelmann, PhD


Prohibition has failed--again. Instead of treating the demand for illegal drugs as a market, and addicts as patients, policymakers the world over have boosted the profits of drug lords and fostered narcostates that would frighten Al Capone. Finally, a smarter drug control regime that values reality over rhetoric is rising to replace the "war" on drugs.

"The Global War on Drugs Can Be Won"


No, it can't. A "drug-free world," which the United Nations describes as a realistic goal, is no more attainable than an "alcohol-free world"--and no one has talked about that with a straight face since the repeal of Prohibition in the United States in 1933. Yet futile rhetoric about winning a "war on drugs" persists, despite mountains of evidence documenting its moral and ideological bankruptcy. When the U.N. General Assembly Special Session on drugs convened in 1998, it committed to "eliminating or significantly reducing the illicit cultivation of the coca bush, the cannabis plant and the opium poppy by the year 2008" and to "achieving significant and measurable results in the field of demand reduction." But today, global production and consumption of those drugs are roughly the same as they were a decade ago; meanwhile, many producers have become more efficient, and cocaine and heroin have become purer and cheaper.


It's always dangerous when rhetoric drives policy--and especially so when "war on drugs" rhetoric leads the public to accept collateral casualties that would never be permissible in civilian law enforcement, much less public health. Politicians still talk of eliminating drugs from the Earth as though their use is a plague on humanity. But drug control is not like disease control, for the simple reason that there's no popular demand for smallpox or polio. Cannabis and opium have been grown throughout much of the world for millennia. The same is true for coca in Latin America.

Methamphetamine and other synthetic drugs can be produced anywhere. Demand for particular illicit drugs waxes and wanes, depending not just on availability but also fads, fashion, culture, and competition from alternative means of stimulation and distraction. The relative harshness of drug laws and the intensity of enforcement matter surprisingly little, except in totalitarian states. After all, rates of illegal drug use in the United States are the same as, or higher than, Europe, despite America's much more punitive policies.

"We Can Reduce the Demand for Drugs"


Good luck. Reducing the demand for illegal drugs seems to make sense. But the desire to alter one's state of consciousness, and to use psychoactive drugs to do so, is nearly universal--and mostly not a problem. There's virtually never been a drug-free society, and more drugs are discovered and devised every year. Demand-reduction efforts that rely on honest education and positive alternatives to drug use are helpful, but not when they devolve into unrealistic, "zero tolerance" policies.


As with sex, abstinence from drugs is the best way to avoid trouble, but one always needs a fallback strategy for those who can't or won't refrain. "Zero tolerance" policies deter some people, but they also dramatically increase the harms and costs for those who don't resist. Drugs become more potent, drug use becomes more hazardous, and people who use drugs are marginalized in ways that serve no one.


The better approach is not demand reduction but "harm reduction." Reducing drug use is fine, but it's not nearly as important as reducing the death, disease, crime, and suffering associated with both drug misuse and failed prohibitionist policies. With respect to legal drugs, such as alcohol and cigarettes, harm reduction means promoting responsible drinking and designated drivers, or persuading people to switch to nicotine patches, chewing gums, and smokeless tobacco. With respect to illegal drugs, it means reducing the transmission of infectious disease through syringe-exchange programs, reducing overdose fatalities by making antidotes readily available, and allowing people addicted to heroin and other illegal opiates to obtain methadone from doctors and even pharmaceutical heroin from clinics. Britain, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland have already embraced this last option. There's no longer any question that these strategies decrease drug-related harms without increasing drug use. What blocks expansion of such programs is not cost; they typically save taxpayers' money that would otherwise go to criminal justice and healthcare. No, the roadblocks are abstinence-only ideologues and a cruel indifference to the lives and well-being of people who use drugs.

"Reducing the Supply of Drugs Is the Answer"


Not if history is any guide. Reducing supply makes as much sense as reducing demand; after all, if no one were planting cannabis, coca, and opium, there wouldn't be any heroin, cocaine, or marijuana to sell or consume. But the carrot and stick of crop eradication and substitution have been tried and failed, with rare exceptions, for half a century. These methods may succeed in targeted locales, but they usually simply shift production from one region to another: Opium production moves from Pakistan to Afghanistan; coca from Peru to Colombia; and cannabis from Mexico to the United States, while overall global production remains relatively constant or even increases.


The carrot, in the form of economic development and assistance in switching to legal crops, is typically both late and inadequate. The stick, often in the form of forced eradication, including aerial spraying, wipes out illegal and legal crops alike and can be hazardous to both people and local environments. The best thing to be said for emphasizing supply reduction is that it provides a rationale for wealthier nations to spend a little money on economic development in poorer countries. But, for the most part, crop eradication and substitution wreak havoc among impoverished farmers without diminishing overall global supply.


The global markets in cannabis, coca, and opium products operate essentially the same way that other global commodity markets do: If one source is compromised due to bad weather, rising production costs, or political difficulties, another emerges. If international drug control circles wanted to think strategically, the key question would no longer be how to reduce global supply, but rather: Where does illicit production cause the fewest problems (and the greatest benefits)? Think of it as a global vice control challenge. No one expects to eradicate vice, but it must be effectively zoned and regulated--even if it's illegal.

"U.S. Drug Policy Is the World's Drug Policy"


Sad, but true. Looking to the United States as a role model for drug control is like looking to apartheid-era South Africa for how to deal with race. The United States ranks first in the world in per capita incarceration--with less than 5 percent of the world's population, but almost 25 percent of the world's prisoners. The number of people locked up for U.S. drug-law violations has increased from roughly 50,000 in 1980 to almost 500,000 today; that's more than the number of people Western Europe locks up for everything. Even more deadly is U.S. resistance to syringe-exchange programs to reduce HIV/AIDS both at home and abroad. Who knows how many people might not have contracted HIV if the United States had implemented at home, and supported abroad, the sorts of syringe-exchange and other harm-reduction programs that have kept HIV/AIDS rates so low in Australia, Britain, the Netherlands, and elsewhere. Perhaps millions.


And yet, despite this dismal record, the United States has succeeded in constructing an international drug prohibition regime modeled after its own highly punitive and moralistic approach. It has dominated the drug control agencies of the United Nations and other international organizations, and its federal drug enforcement agency was the first national police organization to go global. Rarely has one nation so successfully promoted its own failed policies to the rest of the world.


But now, for the first time, U.S. hegemony in drug control is being challenged. The European Union is demanding rigorous assessment of drug control strategies. Exhausted by decades of service to the U.S.-led war on drugs, Latin Americans are far less inclined to collaborate closely with U.S. drug enforcement efforts. Finally waking up to the deadly threat of HIV/AIDS, China, Indonesia, Vietnam, and even Malaysia and Iran are increasingly accepting of syringe-exchange and other harm-reduction programs. In 2005, the ayatollah in charge of Iran's Ministry of Justice issued a fatwa declaring methadone maintenance and syringe-exchange programs compatible with sharia (Islamic) law. One only wishes his American counterpart were comparably enlightened.

"Afghan Opium Production Must Be Curbed"


Be careful what you wish for. It's easy to believe that eliminating record-high opium production in Afghanistan--which today accounts for roughly 90 percent of global supply, up from 50 percent 10 years ago--would solve everything from heroin abuse in Europe and Asia to the resurgence of the Taliban.


But assume for a moment that the United States, NATO, and Hamid Karzai's government were somehow able to cut opium production in Afghanistan. Who would benefit? Only the Taliban, warlords, and other black-market entrepreneurs whose stockpiles of opium would skyrocket in value. Hundreds of thousands of Afghan peasants would flock to cities, ill-prepared to find work. And many Afghans would return to their farms the following year to plant another illegal harvest, utilizing guerrilla farming methods to escape intensified eradication efforts. Except now, they'd soon be competing with poor farmers elsewhere in Central Asia, Latin America, or even Africa. This is, after all, a global commodities market.


And outside Afghanistan? Higher heroin prices typically translate into higher crime rates by addicts. They also invite cheaper but more dangerous means of consumption, such as switching from smoking to injecting heroin, which results in higher HIV and hepatitis C rates. All things considered, wiping out opium in Afghanistan would yield far fewer benefits than is commonly assumed.


So what's the solution? Some recommend buying up all the opium in Afghanistan, which would cost a lot less than is now being spent trying to eradicate it. But, given that farmers somewhere will produce opium so long as the demand for heroin persists, maybe the world is better off, all things considered, with 90 percent of it coming from just one country. And if that heresy becomes the new gospel, it opens up all sorts of possibilities for pursuing a new policy in Afghanistan that reconciles the interests of the United States, NATO, and millions of Afghan citizens.

"Legalization Is the Best Approach"


It might be. Global drug prohibition is clearly a costly disaster. The United Nations has estimated the value of the global market in illicit drugs at $400 billion, or 6 percent of global trade. The extraordinary profits available to those willing to assume the risks enrich criminals, terrorists, violent political insurgents, and corrupt politicians and governments. Many cities, states, and even countries in Latin America, the Caribbean, and Asia are reminiscent of Chicago under Al Capone--times 50. By bringing the market for drugs out into the open, legalization would radically change all that for the better.


More importantly, legalization would strip addiction down to what it really is: a health issue. Most people who use drugs are like the responsible alcohol consumer, causing no harm to themselves or anyone else. They would no longer be the state's business. But legalization would also benefit those who struggle with drugs by reducing the risks of overdose and disease associated with unregulated products, eliminating the need to obtain drugs from dangerous criminal markets, and allowing addiction problems to be treated as medical rather than criminal problems.


No one knows how much governments spend collectively on failing drug war policies, but it's probably at least $100 billion a year, with federal, state, and local governments in the United States accounting for almost half the total. Add to that the tens of billions of dollars to be gained annually in tax revenues from the sale of legalized drugs. Now imagine if just a third of that total were committed to reducing drug-related disease and addiction. Virtually everyone, except those who profit or gain politically from the current system, would benefit.


Some say legalization is immoral. That's nonsense, unless one believes there is some principled basis for discriminating against people based solely on what they put into their bodies, absent harm to others. Others say legalization would open the floodgates to huge increases in drug abuse. They forget that we already live in a world in which psychoactive drugs of all sorts are readily available--and in which people too poor to buy drugs resort to sniffing gasoline, glue, and other industrial products, which can be more harmful than any drug. No, the greatest downside to legalization may well be the fact that the legal markets would fall into the hands of the powerful alcohol, tobacco, and pharmaceutical companies. Still, legalization is a far more pragmatic option than living with the corruption, violence, and organized crime of the current system.

"Legalization Will Never Happen"


Never say never. Wholesale legalization may be a long way off--but partial legalization is not. If any drug stands a chance of being legalized, it's cannabis. Hundreds of millions of people have used it, the vast majority without suffering any harm or going on to use "harder" drugs. In Switzerland, for example, cannabis legalization was twice approved by one chamber of its parliament, but narrowly rejected by the other.


Elsewhere in Europe, support for the criminalization of cannabis is waning. In the United States, where roughly 40 percent of the country's 1.8 million annual drug arrests are for cannabis possession, typically of tiny amounts, 40 percent of Americans say that the drug should be taxed, controlled, and regulated like alcohol. Encouraged by Bolivian President Evo Morales, support is also growing in Latin America and Europe for removing coca from international antidrug conventions, given the absence of any credible health reason for keeping it there. Traditional growers would benefit economically, and there's some possibility that such products might compete favorably with more problematic substances, including alcohol.


The global war on drugs persists in part because so many people fail to distinguish between the harms of drug abuse and the harms of prohibition. Legalization forces that distinction to the forefront. The opium problem in Afghanistan is primarily a prohibition problem, not a drug problem. The same is true of the narcoviolence and corruption that has afflicted Latin America and the Caribbean for almost three decades--and that now threatens Africa. Governments can arrest and kill drug lord after drug lord, but the ultimate solution is a structural one, not a prosecutorial one. Few people doubt any longer that the war on drugs is lost, but courage and vision are needed to transcend the ignorance, fear, and vested interests that sustain it.
[Original Sidebar]


WANT TO KNOW MORE?


Drugpolicy.org, the Web site of the Drug Policy Alliance, offers statistics, arguments, and information about drug policies worldwide. Ethan Nadelmann and Peter Andreas examine the politics of global crime control in Policing the Globe: Criminalization and Crime Control in International Relations (New York: Oxford University Press, 2006).


Joseph Westermeyer's classic article, "The Pro-Heroin Effects of Anti-Opium Laws in Asia" (Archives of General Psychiatry, Vol. 33, No. 9, September 1976), proved how banning opium in Asia stimulated heroin production and use. For up-to-date analysis on the extent of drug use around the world, see the Web sites of the Transnational Institute and the International Harm Reduction Development Program.


In Illicit: How Smugglers, Traffickers, and Copycats Are Hijacking the Global Economy (New York: Doubleday, 2005), FP Editor Moises Naim documents the ways in which globalization bolsters the illegal trade of drugs and other contraband products. Christopher Hitchens proposes the end of the U.S. narcotics prohibition in "21 Solutions to Save the World: Legalize It" (Foreign Policy, May/June 2007).

Source.

Put that in yer pipe and schmoke it!
 
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