Dems Again Show True Colors

[Gonz]

Most Americans don't understand the ramifications of a surrender date.

The American public is just sick & tired of political in-fighting over something that was voted on & passed by an overwhelming majority (near inanimous) Congress. After 4 years of Democrat backstabbing, America has had enough.

You can't find a poll that says Americans want to lose this battle.

 

[2minkey]

Most Americans don't understand the ramifications of a surrender date.

you've got to be joking. are you some kind of elitist? are you one of those "the masses are asses" kind of guys? that would be extra funny. because statistically you ARE the masses.

most americans are smart enough to understand what that could mean. most americans are also smart enough to understand that, at this point, we really are - pardon the phrase - herding cats and we could be doing so for the next 15 years if we "stay the course," and that whatever the outcome, it simply isn't worth the cost of additional, multi-year efforts.

 

[Cerise]

It TELLS me that the Congress members who are not voting for the bill are not doing what America wants...namely the Reps.

Democratic Yay:220 Nay:7 (doing what America wants)
Republican Yay:2 Nay:196 (not doing what America wants)

Actually, the official vote in the House was 222-203, 62 shy of the two-thirds majority needed to override a veto. http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/254/story/26401.html I can't believe that the dems couldn't convince 62 repubs. that the "majority of American citizens want a withdrawl date." More telling, they couldn't convince 7 of their own it is a good idea either.

 

[chcr]

you've got to be joking. are you some kind of elitist? are you one of those "the masses are asses" kind of guys? that would be extra funny. because statistically you ARE the masses.

most americans are smart enough to understand what that could mean. most americans are also smart enough to understand that, at this point, we really are - pardon the phrase - herding cats and we could be doing so for the next 15 years if we "stay the course," and that whatever the outcome, it simply isn't worth the cost of additional, multi-year efforts.

I understand it, and I'm no one special.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I understand it, and I'm no one special.

Riiiigggghhhhtttt...

The main problem, from the beginning, was a weak-kneed response. You can't fight a war 'on the cheap', and you can't maintain control over a large area with only 120,000 troops. This is only being compounded by what Congress is up to. Remember...they voted on this, and approved it from the start. Why they did is not the issue at this point, as much as some would like to believe. As opposed as some are to 'staying the course', there are no other viable alternatives at this juncture that would allow for a more peaceful future.

 

[chcr]

Riiiigggghhhhtttt...

The main problem, from the beginning, was a weak-kneed response. You can't fight a war 'on the cheap', and you can't maintain control over a large area with only 120,000 troops. This is only being compounded by what Congress is up to. Remember...they voted on this, and approved it from the start. Why they did is not the issue at this point, as much as some would like to believe. As opposed as some are to 'staying the course', there are no other viable alternatives at this juncture that would allow for a more peaceful future.

No Gato, the main problem (as I see it, of course) was and is that there never should have been any response. I agree with everything else, more or less. Iraq should never have been the focus of anything regarding our foreign policy. It was a put up job. As more and more evidence comes out this becomes more and more apparent. All the administration has succeeded in doing in Iraq is making a bad situation worse. The only two workable solutions are to cut our losses or go in full force and stomp on their throats until they capitulate. The first is certainly unpalatabe and will get us roundly renounced in the international community (what else is new?). I really can't see even our stauncher allies standing still for option two and I suspect that this path would lead inevitably to World War III.

Before you start arguing about Iraq, I'll remind you that the Taliban (remember them?) recently took control of another Afghan province. They participated in an attack on America, aren't you glad we settled their hash? Priorities anyone?

Edit: The simple fact is that we will leave Iraq when the current administration leaves power (if not before) regardless of who wins. Makes more snese to me to admit you were wrong and get out now.

 

[Gato_Solo]

No Gato, the main problem (as I see it, of course) was and is that there never should have been any response. I agree with everything else, more or less. Iraq should never have been the focus of anything regarding our foreign policy. It was a put up job. As more and more evidence comes out this becomes more and more apparent. All the administration has succeeded in doing in Iraq is making a bad situation worse. The only two workable solutions are to cut our losses or go in full force and stomp on their throats until they capitulate. The first is certainly unpalatabe and will get us roundly renounced in the international community (what else is new?). I really can't see even our stauncher allies standing still for option two and I suspect that this path would lead inevitably to World War III.

Before you start arguing about Iraq, I'll remind you that the Taliban (remember them?) recently took control of another Afghan province. They participated in an attack on America, aren't you glad we settled their hash? Priorities anyone?

Edit: The simple fact is that we will leave Iraq when the current administration leaves power (if not before) regardless of who wins. Makes more snese to me to admit you were wrong and get out now.

Not the point I was making, but heregoes...You send the military into a country to do a job. They get rid of the 'enemy' military, and now have the job of cleaning up. When the cleanup starts, yo decide that you had no business being there in the first place, and you may've made a huge mistake. You now have two options...only one of which is helpful in the long run.

1. Apologize and leave, leaving behind a broken country whose citizens are now resentful because you set them, and their economy, back 50 years, or more.
2. Apologize while cleaning up and replacing what you broke to the best of your ability. The citizens will still be a bit resentful, but at least that will be mollified by your sincerity.

Another way to look at this is if your neighbors kids come over to your place, and destroy your TV, stereo, and half your furniture. There is no judicial jurisdiction. Your neighbor chooses number one. How do you feel?

 

[MrBishop]

Your #2 is oversimplified, Gato. The best imagery would by some guy picking up bits of a broken glass he knocked over while his ex is flinging crockery at his head and occasionally hitting the children.

 

[chcr]

Not the point I was making, but heregoes...You send the military into a country to do a job. They get rid of the 'enemy' military, and now have the job of cleaning up. When the cleanup starts, yo decide that you had no business being there in the first place, and you may've made a huge mistake. You now have two options...only one of which is helpful in the long run.

1. Apologize and leave, leaving behind a broken country whose citizens are now resentful because you set them, and their economy, back 50 years, or more.
2. Apologize while cleaning up and replacing what you broke to the best of your ability. The citizens will still be a bit resentful, but at least that will be mollified by your sincerity.

Another way to look at this is if your neighbors kids come over to your place, and destroy your TV, stereo, and half your furniture. There is no judicial jurisdiction. Your neighbor chooses number one. How do you feel?

I take your point, but in the real, 21st century world, I don't think the American people are ready to stand for the cost or effort of the cleanup, especially given that much of the "evidence" used to drum up support for the war in the first place is turning out to be fantasies or outright lies. The responsible choice is obvious to both of us. The real question is how many American lives is it worth to make the responsible choice knowing that it will never be appreciated or likely even noticed in any meaningful way. I say, given all the other circumstances surrounding the run up and the incredible mismanagement of the situation, it has already cost too many.

Re your TV/furniture analogy, a bit oversimplified, don't you think?

 

[Professur]

I'd say arguing about Why is pretty pointless right about now.

Can someone tell me why the sovereign elected gov't of Iraq hasn't put forth a request to the UN for peacekeepers to help them police the insurgents so that the US can eventually, possibly leave?

 

[chcr]

Arguing on the internet in general is pretty pointless, Prof. You didn't imagine we were about to stop, did you?

 

[Professur]

Jsut so long as you realize that none of you are right.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I take your point, but in the real, 21st century world, I don't think the American people are ready to stand for the cost or effort of the cleanup, especially given that much of the "evidence" used to drum up support for the war in the first place is turning out to be fantasies or outright lies. The responsible choice is obvious to both of us. The real question is how many American lives is it worth to make the responsible choice knowing that it will never be appreciated or likely even noticed in any meaningful way. I say, given all the other circumstances surrounding the run up and the incredible mismanagement of the situation, it has already cost too many.

And if we don't even try to do the right thing?

Re your TV/furniture analogy, a bit oversimplified, don't you think?

Maybe, but its spot-on to what we're doing with the infrastructure.

 

[spike]

The American public is just sick & tired of political in-fighting over something that was voted on & passed by an overwhelming majority (near inanimous) Congress. After 4 years of Democrat backstabbing, America has had enough.

You can't find a poll that says Americans want to lose this battle.

It was voted on and passed based on lieas and misinformation. America recognizes that now. They're sick of years of republican corruption and has had enough hence the new Dem contolled congress.

There's nothing to lose. Polls say Americans want a timetable for withdrawal and that's what the Congress is trying to provide.

 

[chcr]

And if we don't even try to do the right thing?

I thought that was what all the crap for the last five years was. Completely fucked it up, but that's what they say they were trying to do. Do you really think more of the same is in order? As far as I can see, all they're really doing is throwing away lives in hopes the situation will improve on it's own. More of the same is unacceptable. Sometimes you can do the right things for the right reasons (not what's happened in this case, IMO) and still make the situation worse.

I honestly don't think that doing what might, from our point of view, be the right thing will in any way improve the situation. Don't forget also, their wants, needs and expectations come from a completely different culture. Thus far I think we've shown an alarming lack of understanding in that area.

 

[spike]

1. Apologize and leave, leaving behind a broken country whose citizens are now resentful because you set them, and their economy, back 50 years, or more.

Nope, the majority of Iraqis want us out. They'll be thrilled.

Another way to look at this is if your neighbors kids come over to your place, and destroy your TV, stereo, and half your furniture. There is no judicial jurisdiction. Your neighbor chooses number one. How do you feel?

I'd be far more pissed if my neighbors kids set up some occupation in my house for years continuing to screw things up. Time to go kids...just get the hell out of my house!

 

[spike]

I can't believe that the dems couldn't convince 62 repubs.

Yep those repubs just don't care about the public. At least the majority of congress is on the right track.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I thought that was what all the crap for the last five years was. Completely fucked it up, but that's what they say they were trying to do. Do you really think more of the same is in order? As far as I can see, all they're really doing is throwing away lives in hopes the situation will improve on it's own. More of the same is unacceptable. Sometimes you can do the right things for the right reasons (not what's happened in this case, IMO) and still make the situation worse.

I honestly don't think that doing what might, from our point of view, be the right thing will in any way improve the situation. Don't forget also, their wants, needs and expectations come from a completely different culture. Thus far I think we've shown an alarming lack of understanding in that area.

I was all for overwhelming force when this thing started, so it wouldn't fall apart as it has. Doesn't help matters when those with an opposing view do everything they can to put only the bad news on the front page, and never let the good news into the media at all. Then we have those who have no stake in the matter, for good or for ill, chiming in with their 2 cents worth, and denegrating everything that has to do with the reconstruction effort because they don't like the administration, and this is what you get...a miasma of idiocy and pandering topped with bullshit and rhetoric from both sides...

As for cultural understanding...I've been there 3 times and never heard so much as a bad word used against me, personally. Most of that is directed towards the US in general, whether they think we should be there or not...

 

[Cerise]

Yep those repubs just don't care about the public. At least the majority of congress is on the right track.

I would suggest the dems haven't tried hard enough to sway them over.

However, if the dems are so sincere about a timeframe for withdrawl why don't they refuse to continue funding and leave the US military to hitchhike home?

 

[MrBishop]

I would suggest the dems haven't tried hard enough to sway them over.

However, if the dems are so sincere about a timeframe for withdrawl why don't they refuse to continue funding and leave the US military to hitchhike home?

Umh...because the Democrats still support the troops. Because the point of this isn't to cripple the military financially, but to put a stop to what's amounting to a waste of time, effort and most of all..human life.