Don't like our policies

[PT]

Does she let you visit porn sites?

Are there others?

 

[Ardsgaine]

Does she let you visit porn sites?

With six kids at their house, she probably insists on it....

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

By your definition of bad, Hex. I think OLI's right, people are people. We actually discussed this some in anotherthread. but here is part of what I believe anyway. Marxism/Communism/Socialism sacrifices the individual for the good of the collective. Human beings are simply not wired that way. WE are individuals, we're competitive, self-centered, jealous and greedy. Certain groups throughout history have taught us that these are "bad" traits, and "good" people don't have them. That's a lie. These are survival traits for our species, they make us what we are (Note: I'm simplifying this quite a bit because I don't want to type so much. Some of us are lazy, too). I don't agree with Ards that communism,et al is evil, just that it is unworkable in human society. Hell, history shows us that peace is unworkable in human society. There'll always be people more greedy than the rest of us upsetting the apple cart, as it were. We are as a species just too contentious for peace to last any length of time.

I'm using bad in a general sort of way. What i mean by it here is that humans naturally tend to put their own comfort ahead of others needs. If it were simply putting ones needs above anothers that's understandable, thats self-preservation but most of us tend to be beyond that and easily closer to a Bill Gates mentality. That is having excess and although maybe being upset at seeing millions starve to death we put our comfort above their lives. There are the few though who would not have it. continued...
Ards
-Ghandi, Einstein, Mother Teresa. There are those brilliant and loving people that if they ran a socialist nation it would work because the average person would be wealthy not poor. I'm not suggesting by any means that communism is possible. What i'm saying is the failure of communism was not the system but the people behind it. Under a caring and unselfish rule communism could work because people would not only be free but wealth & power would be divided up evenly. The communist nations that we have known did not work in such a manner. Supression of freedom is not a communist rule. It's only been added by communist leaders so they can maintain their control. Unselfish caring leaders would not need that power and they would see to it that one oil company(in the case of russia) wasn't recieving 25% of the entire nations income. So basically it could work in a pefect world and what are the chances of that? Maybe a googolplex to one.
Again, i'm not defending communism only the idea that it's the people behind it that determine it's degree of success or failure and in our current world it will fail 99.999% of the time.

Dasvedanya!!

 

[Ardsgaine]

Ghandi, Einstein, Mother Teresa. There are those brilliant and loving people that if they ran a socialist nation it would work because the average person would be wealthy not poor.

Give the ring of power to Gandalf, because he's good, kind and wise, and he will use it justly, right? No, because the power to force people to work for others is evil, and will corrupt anyone who attempts to use it.

There's two issues here. One is that it takes a massive amount of force in order to get people to sacrifice their own interests for the benefit of others, and that force will always corrupt the state that possesses it.

The second issue is that wealth belongs to the person who creates it. If a man grows 50 bushels of wheat, and he only needs 20 to survive, the other thirty still belong to him and he has the right to use them any way he wants. He doesn't owe them to those who couldn't or wouldn't produce them.

Likewise, if a man creates a multi-billion dollar company, he expects to profit from it in a big way, and he should because it was his creation. He created the wealth, and it belongs to him to do with as he wishes.

These are the moral principles recognized by capitalism: that no one has the right to initiate force against another person; and that the right to life entails the right to the product of one's labor, i.e., wealth belongs to the person who creates it. Those are the moral principles that socialism denies, and that is why socialism is evil in theory as well as practice.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Well for the sake of arguement i could carry this farther by saying in a perfect world...
But i won't because i agree with your assertian that he who sows should reep.

 

[chcr]

Under a caring and unselfish rule communism could work because people would not only be free but wealth & power would be divided up evenly.

Sorry Hex, I disagree. It would work right up until the power hungry, greedy people killed off the unselfish leaders and took over. I didn't make the world, I'm just trying to live in it.

Try this. I don't know if you own a home, but lets say you do. Your government comes to you and says,"You don't need this much room, we're puting a big family who don't work hard enough to own a big house like this in here, and moving you into an apartment with barely enough room for your family. Aren't you happy you could help?" I'd be dead or in jail, myself.

 

[outside looking in]

Supression of freedom is not a communist rule.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Supression of freedom is not a communist rule.

It's a communist practice...

 

[Gonz]

In a utopian existence, communism has a chance at being a viable & fair alternative to consumerism & capitalism.

We do not live in a utopian world so it's generallly irrelevent. As long as one man has the want, need or desire to aquire more for himself we need a balanced economic system & armies.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Yes but it's not a rule. Communism can work but it doesn't have to be perfect.

I

communism

There, happy now?

 

[Ardsgaine]

There, happy now?

Well, I'm rolling on the floor laughing, if that's what you mean.

 

[outside looking in]

Yes but it's not a rule.

I disagree. Perhaps I'm being simplistic, but I typically equate freedom with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If one of the three is missing, I wouldn't say that is being free.

Communism robs the individual of the pursuit of happiness, and replaces it with the pursuit of the state's welfare. It robs the individual of individualism, which to me is one of the greatest crimes.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Ok you guys are probably right. I should stop this now. I've very impressionable you know and i think i'm actually beginning to believe some of the crap i've been spewing.
It was fun for awhile but enough is enough.

 

[outside looking in]

 

[Squiggy]

You say that like it's a bad thing... Why should people work for the benefit of others? What makes those others more worthy of the product of their labor than themselves?

If I remember correctly, you had trouble accepting that argument as it applied to those who served and those who didn't having equal claim to our rights....


The problem I have with capitalism and, seemingly, the right wing in general, is that both seem to twist and turn depending on which side of the issue they find themselves. I just read somewhere in the last few days of threads where you actually tried to push "Nazi" to the left side of the spectrum. You can twist the words any way you want, but nazi and dictator and totalitarian are just the epitome of capitalism.

 

[Squiggy]

Gonz, I don't think you really believe that Americans who disagree with whatever given point, hate America. At least I hope not.

 

[flavio]

Why should people work for the benefit of others?

So you don't work?

 

[chcr]

The problem I have with capitalism and, seemingly, the right wing in general

Then you accept the idea that capitalism is conservative/communism is liberal? I've always had a little trouble with that characterization myself.

 

[Ardsgaine]

If I remember correctly, you had trouble accepting that argument as it applied to those who served and those who didn't having equal claim to our rights....

We have a volunteer army, and I have never advocated the draft. Our soldiers choose to do the job they do, and they get paid for it. They're not being coerced.

The problem I have with capitalism and, seemingly, the right wing in general, is that both seem to twist and turn depending on which side of the issue they find themselves.

If you want to make that claim about me, then back it up with evidence. My arguments are consistent with my principles. If you think you've found a contradiction, point it out.

I just read somewhere in the last few days of threads where you actually tried to push "Nazi" to the left side of the spectrum.

I didn't 'try' to push it there, that's where it belongs.

You can twist the words any way you want, but nazi and dictator and totalitarian are just the epitome of capitalism.

It wasn't called the National 'Capitalist' Workers' Party, it was the National Socialist Workers' Party. I posted their platform on the board once before to show how it espouses typical socialist goals. I guess I need to pull that thread out again...

 

[BigDadday]

Will someone enlighten me as to if they hate my country so much why is it they keep accepting our monies and supplies that we always are donatinbg to them. Oh another thing is why if we are such a dreadful place do you keep coming here? Either legally or illegally you always manage to sneak in and enjoy my freedom that we have fought and died for so as the saying goes well my saying maybe FO and die and leave fast as the door will not hit you in your arses.

When are "WE" going to learn that carrying that big stick and speaking softly doesn't work and we need to use it sometimes? Like now!