Empty holster student protest this week

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
I love the idea of a bunch of drunk frat guys packing heat at our schools.

Hasn't havvened at the Univeresity of Northern Colorado where those with CCW can carry concealed on campus.

Of course, the "wild west shootouts over parking spaces and fender benders" predicted by the anti-firearms crowd has never manifested itself either; and they have hoisted that argument forty-one times not -- once for every state that has passed CCW legislation.

Shit let's give high school kids grenade launchers to test on the football field.

:beardbng:

Gee, I'm really, truly surprised. Usually your type goes right to the "personal nuclear weapon" exaggeration. I guess that is still to come so we will all wait patiently while you conjure that one up.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
You want all the drunk frat guys and high school kids to know right from wrong? I'm with you but that's a tall order.

I'd suspect many would just want to have some fun with their Uzi and grenades.

Ah, there it is. You are only a couple of steps away from that all important "personal nuclear weapon" exaggeration.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Why ban any weapons? They have the right to bear arms and all.

The people on the Long Island Railway were allowed to bear arms during the slaughter perpetrated by Colin Ferguson. Hell, he even reloaded while they cowered with their arms. The second time he attempted to reload, they brought their arms to bear and they stopped the mayhem.

By the way, those arms I mentioned were the ones attached to their shoulders. You see, in NY you can't get a CCW so you have to wait for hired gunmen to bring firearms to your location to stop the madman in your midst or you have to rush him barehanded and hope you survive.

When I was in college I saw a very large number of fights. Shit there were fights at my local bar at closing time practically weekly. I'm not picturing Beirut but I imagine if everyone involved had been armed it just possible that they might have gotten some use.

If efveryone in the room knew that everyone else was armed and their chances of survival were zero they wouldn't be pulling out a firearm in that situation. You make the mistaken assumption that firearms create violence. In actuality, firearms decrease violence. You just don't know the facts and choose emotion over fact.

Sure, I only knew a couple students who owned guns and they didn't carry them around on or off campus. They kept them in the house. I think some here would like to see many or most people carrying weapons around to class and elsewhere.

Number me among that "some".
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
The only thing mandatory here is taxation. Hell, even work is optional it appears.

Besides, suburbanites from coast to coast would lapse into apoplexy at the mere thought of their darling princess being taught how to fire a weapon. That time is better spent, according to one school of thought, puttin rubbers on bananas in 5th grade. Who has time to learn how to fire a gun when there's condoms and fruit to be paired?

When I went through high school, a hunter's education class was mandatory, as a part of the semester of health required to graduate. In it, we watched some films and read a book and took a test, and at the end we all had to fire a shotgun at between 3 and 7 clay pigeons. The rednecks, m'self included, opted for 7; the wusses took the three and missed abysmally. You didn't have to hit anything, you just had to shoot the gun to pass. I think even that is no longer required though...too many suburbanite princesses. Male and female.


When I was in High School my school bus had a rifle rack. You would board the bus, give your rifle to the driver who would check to see if it was clear, and then put it in the rifle rack.

When you got to school, he would issue the rifle back to you and you would then walk across the campus to the gym where the PE instructor would place it in the corner of his unlocked office.

After school, you would pick it up, go to the school firing range and shoot. If you missed the last bus home then you would have to hitchhike with your rifle and no one thought a thing about picking up a kid with a firearm.

So where was this? AR? TN? SC? Nope. Calaveras County, CA, San Andreas High School.
 

Kruz

New Member
If efveryone in the room knew that everyone else was armed and their chances of survival were zero they wouldn't be pulling out a firearm in that situation. You make the mistaken assumption that firearms create violence. In actuality, firearms decrease violence. You just don't know the facts and choose emotion over fact.
.

According to my sig... I couldn't agree more.
 

Kruz

New Member
somewhat related in the news today...


Family Terrorized In Home Invasion

POSTED: 12:20 pm EDT October 23, 2007
UPDATED: 6:19 am EDT October 24, 2007


NORCROSS, Ga. -- A Norcross family was terrorized by a group of men who tied them up and robbed their home at gunpoint late Monday night, police said.

Gwinnett County police said three Hispanic men broke into a home in the Norcross Village Mobile Home Park on Buford Highway in Norcross, demanding money and tying up a couple and their three teenage boys before escaping with the loot.

A woman in the house told police she had been raped by the gunmen during the home invasion.

The gunmen were all wearing khaki pants with pullover shirts, investigators said. Two of the men had handguns, while the third man carried a rifle.


The trio was seen leaving the area in a white Silverado pickup truck with an extended cab and chrome tubing along the bottom of the vehicle, police said.

A neighbor was able to free the victims and take them to a nearby hospital where they contacted police.

Anyone with information about the incident is asked to contact the Gwinnett County Police Department at 770-513-5300.

Now if the Man and his 3 sons were armed, maybe they wouldn't have had to watch there mother get raped! :grumpy:
 

spike

New Member
Hasn't havvened at the Univeresity of Northern Colorado where those with CCW can carry concealed on campus.

Of course, the "wild west shootouts over parking spaces and fender benders" predicted by the anti-firearms crowd has never manifested itself either; and they have hoisted that argument forty-one times not -- once for every state that has passed CCW legislation.

Are you trying to say nobody has ever been shot over road rage? Not once?

Gee, I'm really, truly surprised. Usually your type goes right to the "personal nuclear weapon" exaggeration. I guess that is still to come so we will all wait patiently while you conjure that one up.

What type?
 

spike

New Member
Again, that hasn't happened at UNC.

I think you're making this stuff up.

Yes, it was another possible scenario added to the "or"'s of the other two created scenarios. But sure, logically if something doesn't happen at UNC then it can't possibly happen anywhere.

But that would mean if I could come up with one example of a university where students don't carry and nothing bad happened then it would prove that they don't need to right?

A conundrum.
 

spike

New Member
The people on the Long Island Railway were allowed...

I said "why ban any weapon". Not sure what your reply had to do with that.

If efveryone in the room knew that everyone else was armed and their chances of survival were zero they wouldn't be pulling out a firearm in that situation. You make the mistaken assumption that firearms create violence. In actuality, firearms decrease violence. You just don't know the facts and choose emotion over fact.

I said nothing about firearms creating violence. I gave some examples of violence that existed without firearms in fact.

You seem to be saying that if two drunk guys get in a fight outside a bar, and both of them are carrying, that you don't think the guns would get used.

I doubt it.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
hmmmm.

i wonder if the founding fathers ever imagined school rampages. probably not.

i always thought the 2nd amendment was about a generalized insurance policy against the gubmint getting too heavy handed with its own folk. not about packing heat in BIO 210 or at the local dennys. whatever.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
What do you have against Uzis and grenades? Geesh.

Not a thing. In fact, the very first firearm my grandson ever fired was a 9mm Uzi subgun.

As for grenades, you have to have a class III license to access those because they are classified as destructive devices. Anyone with a Class III license can buy a destructive device.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Are you trying to say nobody has ever been shot over road rage? Not once?

Gee, you sure put a lot of words in my post that didn't exist.

Try this:

The case was found to be self defense and the entire thing was caught on the 911 tape as the girlfriend of Buspo was on the cell phone to the cops. They are very fortunate that the cell phone was not their sole weapon or their weapon of choice.

It is a good thing that we are protected by the safe travel law here that is written into our constitution. Pursuant to that, we are allowed to have a loaded firearm in our vehicle for lawful defense while traveling.

This from the Colorado Springs Gazette (~7-2-99)

'Road rage' in eye of beholder

Debate focuses on shooting

By Eric Gorski/The Gazette
Story editor Valerie Wigglesworth; headline by Rhonda Van Pelt

The term is a catch phrase rather than a legal definition, a quick and easy way to capture the angst that can entangle the harried 1990s driver: road rage.

It makes for a snappy headline or lively water-cooler talk.

Applying it to real events can be as tricky as negotiating construction on Interstate 25.

On Thursday, the 4th Judicial District Attorney's Office received the completed police reports on an incident that's provoked debate about what qualifies as road rage: a shooting last week between two
motorists that left one man dead.

Detectives have raised the possibility that the fatal shooting was self-defense. Assistant District Attorney Dave Gilbert said a decision about whether charges are warranted against the surviving driver may be
made by the middle of next week.

Lt. Ken Hilte, spokesman for the El Paso County Sheriff's Office, said last week the case didn't qualify as road rage. Someone else might look at those same facts and disagree.

"There is no widespread agreement on what road rage is," said Stephanie Faul, spokeswoman for the American Automobile Association's Foundation for Public Safety. "The term is quite fluid."

Though not all of the details have been released, Hilte said he still feels comfortable with his initial assessment of the July 1 incident that began with a fender bender and ended in homicide. Here's why:

John R. Harrell, 39, the driver of a red Dodge pickup that triggered the crash at Powers Boulevard south of Stetson Hills Boulevard, had a blood-alcohol level of .34, more than three times the legal limit,
toxicology results showed.

That was the likely reason Harrell rammed a blue Ford pickup driven by 37-year-old Christopher Bispo, Hilte said.

The two drivers didn't provoke each other with shouted words or aggressive driving before the crash - typical ingredients of road rage, Hilte said.

Second, Bispo said he gave chase not to exact revenge but to jot down the license plate number and call 911, Hilte said.

A few minutes later, Harrell pulled over on the shoulder of Dublin Boulevard just off Powers, and Bispo parked behind him.

According to witnesses, Harrell stepped out with a gun, Hilte said. Bispo announced that police had been called, then he retreated to his truck to get his weapon.

Detectives have not said publicly who fired first, Hilte said. Bispo was shot once in the abdomen and Harrell was fatally shot in the chest.

Some might argue that regardless of what happened before the shooting, it's still considered road rage because weapons were brandished and people were shot.

"I could see how someone would say, 'Someone's dead. This is the ultimate road rage,'" Hilte said. "There's an initial tendency to say, 'We have two guys driving down the highway slinging lead at each other.'
It wasn't like that."

John Larson, a psychiatrist and director of the Institute of Stress Medicine in Norwalk, Conn., argues road rage is the culmination of a series of retaliatory exchanges between irate drivers.

He even assigns "degrees" of retaliation. Only when one driver intentionally damages another driver's vehicle or injures another driver does the term road rage fit, Larson says.

Leon James, a University of Hawaii psychology professor who's studied driving behavior since 1977, defines road rage as "a persistent state of hostility behind the wheel, demonstrated by acts of aggression
on a continuum of violence, and justified by righteous indignation."

He does not believe an intentional violent act must occur for a confrontation to be called road rage. If a driver exacerbates a situation with a gesture or maneuver instead of driving away, that's road rage, he
says.

The American Automobile Association used the term "aggressive driving" when it released a major study on the subject in 1997.

The study, which found a 51 percent increase in such incidents from 1990 to 1996, defined the term as "events in which an angry or impatient driver tries to kill or injure another driver over a traffic dispute."

About a dozen states in the past year have adopted or considered laws that specifically address aggressive driving, James said. Colorado, which doesn't have such a law, has taken a different approach.

Trooper Chip Broshous, spokesman for the Colorado State Patrol, said troopers have de-emphasized catching speeders and increased ticketing for violations such as following too closely or improper
passing.

The state patrol and local police agencies also have singled out aggressive drivers with charges of reckless driving, a more serious offense than most traffic violations and one that requires a court appearance.

John Henry, co-chairman of Drive Smart Colorado Springs, a nonprofit that promotes traffic safety, said it makes sense that the public and the police might not agree on what qualifies as road rage.

"I think people pretty much use aggressive driving and road rage interchangeably," he said. "But to law enforcement, I think their concern is aggressive driving and at what point does that go over the line and
become out-and-out assault."

What type?

The type who are anti-firearm or who play devil's advocate in the debate.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Yes, it was another possible scenario added to the "or"'s of the other two created scenarios. But sure, logically if something doesn't happen at UNC then it can't possibly happen anywhere.

But that would mean if I could come up with one example of a university where students don't carry and nothing bad happened then it would prove that they don't need to right?

A conundrum.

Just like I could come up with a scenario where you have never been in a wreck or had your house burn so you don't need insurance or a fire extinguisher.

Not a conundrum at all.

Are you aware that there have been three -- COUNT EM -- three school shootings which were stopped by common citizens bearing defensive firearms?

Pearl MS

Appalacian School of Law

Edinboro, PA
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
CCRKBA BLASTS REMARK FROM BRADY SPOKESMAN ABOUT DROPPING OUT OF SCHOOL
BELLEVUE, WA – The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is taking issue with a crass remark by Peter Hamm, spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, in which Hamm contended in a Fox News report that self-defense advocates have no business on college campuses.

Hamm’s remark, reported by Fox News on Wednesday, was, “You don’t like the fact that you can’t have a gun on your college campus? Drop out of school.”

CCRKBA Executive Director Mark A. Taff, himself a part-time college student, fired back, “For a fairly bright, though philosophically misguided guy, Peter said a remarkably stupid thing and he ought to apologize to every college student who believes that their right of self-defense should not be nullified simply by stepping onto a college campus.”

Taff said the Virginia Tech outrage might never have happened if that university had not adopted a campus gun ban, and actively lobbied against a proposed statute that would have allowed legally-licensed students and instructors to be armed. A shooting at Virginia’s Appalachian Law School a few years ago ended when the gunman was confronted by two armed students. A high school shooter in Pearl, Mississippi was taken down at gunpoint by a school administrator who ran to his private vehicle, retrieved a pistol and confronted the gunman.

“To suggest that anyone who disagrees with his personal view about firearms and personal protection ought to voluntarily sacrifice their higher education makes Hamm seem like an elitist snob,” Taff observed. “That’s an insult to thousands of students, like myself, who are this week participating in the ‘Empty Holster Protest’ on college campuses across the country. Certainly Peter doesn’t actually want students to be murdered, assaulted, robbed or raped, does he? We’d like to believe he is a better man than that.

“The real issue here isn’t what Hamm thinks, but the fact that under today’s laws and campus regulations, college and university students, teachers and staff are essentially living in victim disarmament zones,” Taff said. “These are essentially risk-free environments for thugs and lunatics, and that’s outrageous. Instead of encouraging personal safety advocates to quit school, we ought to be encouraging them to stay and change these environments.”

-END-
 

spike

New Member
Just like I could come up with a scenario where you have never been in a wreck or had your house burn so you don't need insurance or a fire extinguisher.

Not a conundrum at all.

The conundrum being that you can find specific examples that support either side of an issue. It doesn't prove the general rule one bit.

We would need something like a report on violence in several schools that had a large portion of the student body carrying compared to several similar schools which did not allow weapons. Anything less is cherry picking to support speculation.

As far as speculation goes tho'

You seem to be saying that if two drunk guys get in a fight outside a bar, and both of them are carrying, that you don't think the guns would get used.

I doubt it.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
We would need something like a report on violence in several schools that had a large portion of the student body carrying compared to several similar schools which did not allow weapons. Anything less is cherry picking to support speculation.

There is no such thing as a school with "a large portion of the student body carrying". There are schools where some of the student body carry, such as UNC, where the level of violence compares to every other school out there.

There are, however many schools with a large portion of the student body NOT carrying and this is what the BGs look for when choosing a site for mayhem. How many would choose UNC as their target knowing full well that some of those he has marked for destruction may have the ability to bring the ultimate retribution to him instead?

The BG is going to choose the school with the "No Firearms Allowed" signs prominently displayed.

How many BGs go to a police station to shoot the place up? I can think of only one; and that was a suicidal man who had just killed his family as I recall. He stood out front and started throwing lead in the front door. The cops came out and killed him -- just the way he planned it.
 

BlurOfSerenity

New Member
if you're drunk, doesn't carrying, even with a permit, become illegal?
and at least 'round these parts, being a habitual drunkard precludes you from owning a handgun -- it's on federal form 4473, which you must fill out to purchase a firearm. and one of the basic rules of handgun safety is that drugs/alcohol and guns don't mix... basically, if drunken fratboy is carrying, drunken fratboy is not very smart and will probably have justic served upon him.
drunken fratboy -- or any person -- with car-keys is already pretty likely to pose a hazzard to himself anyone he may encounter, but you don't see people trying to ban cars, or keys, or alcohol (since they found out already what happens when you do that... HEY! could it be possible the same could happen with guns? nahhhh.......)...
here's some food for thought. it's from 2003, but still worth a look.
http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm


oh, and just because stirring the pot is fun, me with undeadexploder's SKS.
GirlwithaGun1.jpg
 

spike

New Member
There is no such thing as a school with "a large portion of the student body carrying". There are schools where some of the student body carry, such as UNC, where the level of violence compares to every other school out there.

There are, however many schools with a large portion of the student body NOT carrying and this is what the BGs look for when choosing a site for mayhem. How many would choose UNC as their target knowing full well that some of those he has marked for destruction may have the ability to bring the ultimate retribution to him instead?

So you just disproved your own point. If the level of violence at UNC compares to every other school then there's no effectiveness. Although one school doesn't prove the rule.
 
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