Oh those progressive Liberals!

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Gato_Solo said:
That's the whole point. Remember in Star Trek III, when Dr McCoy was talking about euthanizing his father? They found a cure for his father's disease 3 days later, and he had to live with that guilt for the rest of his life. Not to make the situation look either rosy, or black, I don't think I could sign that. Whether they could do something, or not. It has nothing to do with morals, and everything to do with hope.

Hope springs eternal. But all the hope and prayer in the world doesn't cut it when the shit hits the fan.

You would sit by your child's bedside watching him/her writhe in pain? How long would your hope last? Would your hope outlast your child? Would your faith survive your child's death?

This ain't Star Trek... I trust Doctors...I've trusted them with my life and with the life of my son. You can damn well bet your ass that I'll be all over the internet looking for every possible cure, spending hundreds in long distance talking with Docs and specialists from around the world, remortgage my home to fly to and pay for treatment for my son. Grasping at straws...hoping beyond hope. But eventually....hope fails. And when you're holding your dead child...hope dies, God dies and you die too.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
Bish, I've tried to be understanding with you. I've tried to help you see sense. But really, you need help.


Marc said:
Here's one back at you. One of your kids had Colic...can't remember which one but I believe that it was v2.

Your baby is crying all the time, in pain all the time...the crying and screaching is grating on the nerves ain't it...but it's just Colic..it'll go away and its not life threatening.

Same child, still screaming all the time, still in pain all the time...but this time its because of a birth defect...one that'll kill him/her within a few short days/weeks. There's SFA that you can do. There's SFA that the Doctors can do...you can fly to the top clinics in the world and there's still SFA that can be done. Your kid will be in pain for their whole life...mercifully short.

Do you stand bye and watch your son/daughter crying in pain day in and day out? Their pain is evident...they only sleep when they pass out from the pain-killers or from sheer exhaustion..only to wake up again after 30-40 minutes and start screaming again. Their sleep is disturbed by whining and tossing abouts. You KNOW that they'll be dead soon...

Do you wait for them to die or do you end their suffering? There is NO CHANCE OF THEM SURVIVING... can you live with their pain?

Personally... I would do anything to take my child's pain unto myself. Its very fresh in my mind...that pain. The feeling of helplessness. The doctors asked about surgery...I signed the papers. The doctors recommended that my son stay in the hospital for 1-2 weeks...I slept on the floor next to his bed. The doctors told me that he needed a CT-scan and I signed the papers...all to make him better.

I'm damn sure that you'd do the same.

Now...really think about it. Would you let your newborn child suffer for a few days/weeks and die in pain just to prove your fine morals about euthanasia?


Tell me Bish, how's your memory? huh? Tell me, do you remember where V3.0 spend the first days of his life? Do ya? I do. I remember him trembling in that damn incubator, with tubes stuck outta his head.

Tell me Bish. Do you remember Laura? Do you remember how many children she's had? How many nieces and nephews I'm supposed to have? Do you remember how many graves are on top of that hill? Do you remember how light that casket was? I do.
 

tank girl

New Member
:)p what the hell does star trek have to do with this? :alienhuh: )

I'm with Bish on this one.

Obviously to even get to the point where you could consider euthanasia is as an option is traumatic enough- nobody wants to be responsible for ending their own child’s life, and it wouldn't be an easy decision by any means - but where there is a choice to end or prolong your own child’s suffering then surely, with a child in your arms stricken by brain damage from bleeding and convulsions and diseases or [a] severe case of spina bifida and epidermosis bullosa, a rare blistering illness. I think it is inhumane NOT to consider euthanasia - albeit in the most EXTREME circumstances as a last resort.

How can you be guilty with the knowledge that you saved your child from unnecessary suffering?, I would feel GUILTY if I had the legal option of euthanasia and chose to keep the child alive for the sake of my personal "values" and "morals" it is THAT choice would be a very selfish thing!

I think that the only REAL reason that you would be guilty would actually be because you contradicted your own personal, ingrained values and not that you ended a life. You would be guilty - and it would be a selfish guilt - one focused on your own moral conflicts and not the reality of the fact that you saved your child from further suffering.

Euthanasia is not a "death warrant" to be taken lightly, it's NOT ABORTION- it is a mercy killing in the most extreme circumstances - it is only a "death warrant" when you see it as such - and to me that is a very limited perspective.

(An ABORTION is the killing of a foetus, regardless of the foetus's health - the ethical implications of ABORTION is quite a different debate and really shouldn't be confused with this one which is considering the situation of a sick, suffering, terminally ill child with no other available option or hope to survive)

Where your own thwarted values blanket over your ability to see that the rational decision as a parent - despite the obvious moral implications - would be to prevent your child from further harm - from inescapable suffering - to do whatever possible to give your child a peaceful end - because surely he or she would deserve that rather than an agonising few days or weeks witnessing every minute of pain and being helpless to do anything about it to save your child but watch and wait for its last breath to end its ordeal - which I can't see as anything BUT clinical torture

In contrast to some opinions here, I think that there is actually no real excuse not to allow euthanasia as a last resort for extreme cases, where there is nothing else to be done except wait for a slow death that could last for days or even weeks. To have the option to end suffering in a quick, peaceful and humane way seems to be a perfectly fair, rational and necessary step - one that is easily conceivable where you are confronted with such a horrific situation - nobody deserves to have to be put through unnecessary pain where there is the option to solve the problem peacefully.

There is a difference between "morals" which can risk becoming nothing but "ideals" from people living for some conception that the world must be a "perfect utopia". Where people with different "morals" underpinned by religious values are confronted, it usually results in war...this is because there is one factor missing: EMPATHY.

I think it is more a case of EMPATHY than MORALS; anybody with a realistic perception would be able to see that MORALS mean little without a degree of EMPATHY. Anybody with EMPATHY would see that euthanasia is the rational and humane option for a desperately suffering infant with a terminal illness or some such incurable defect.

I'm afraid that with most debates like this - empathy is overlooked in favour of a morality that comes down to nothing less than a brand of EGOTISM obsessed with superiority and a desire prove how "civilised" one is. To prove, as Bish says how far ones own FINE "Morals" and "values" make him superior as a human being. It is important tp be able to differentiate between the two and be a bit critical about where your own personal values and morals really lie...

Why should A HELPLESS CHILD be punished for the sake of upholding the selfish values and morals of adults dead set on having 'something' to prove...?
 

tank girl

New Member
Hmm yeah just who makes the decision.
The story make absolutely NO mention of the parents having a say?

:erm: winks... can I also just point out that the article DOES actually mention the role of parents...

The guideline says euthanasia is acceptable when the child's medical team and independent doctors agree the pain cannot be eased and there is no prospect for improvement, and when parents think it's best
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
What eleven paragraphs and I'm sure there's a thought in there somewhere. Guess they make you write lots of essays in school now.

Their were a couple of vague thoughts in your post that bear clarification tho... care to try to distill a few?

“the only REAL reason that you would be guilty would actually be because you contradicted your own personal, ingrained values and not that you ended a life.”

“it is a mercy killing in the most extreme circumstances - it is only a "death warrant" when you see it as such - and to me that is a very limited perspective.”


“Where your own thwarted values blanket over your ability to see that the rational decision as a parent”

“I think it is more a case of EMPATHY than MORALS”

“Anybody with EMPATHY would see that euthanasia is the rational and humane option”

“I think it is more a case of EMPATHY than MORALS”

“empathy is overlooked in favour of a morality”

OK OK OK we get it you favor Emotions over rational thought based on a set of values i.e. morals

Congrats you are a Liberal!!!
 

tank girl

New Member
Winky said:
What eleven paragraphs and I'm sure there's a thought in there somewhere. Guess they make you write lots of essays in school now.

Their were a couple of vague thoughts in your post that bear clarification tho... care to try to distill a few?

“the only REAL reason that you would be guilty would actually be because you contradicted your own personal, ingrained values and not that you ended a life.”

“it is a mercy killing in the most extreme circumstances - it is only a "death warrant" when you see it as such - and to me that is a very limited perspective.”


“Where your own thwarted values blanket over your ability to see that the rational decision as a parent”

“I think it is more a case of EMPATHY than MORALS”

“Anybody with EMPATHY would see that euthanasia is the rational and humane option”

“I think it is more a case of EMPATHY than MORALS”

“empathy is overlooked in favour of a morality”

OK OK OK we get it you favor Emotions over rational thought based on a set of values i.e. morals

Congrats you are a Liberal!!!

Gracias Winky for putting it in plain english!! I just like writing. And raving. And ranting. Annnnnnnnnnnd, well... I'm not to good at the "keep it short and simple" thang..... its just er, not my style...;) :lol: so leave me alone, okay or I'll go and terrorize another board...:D
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Oh NO I love yer ranting!
and besides if your pic is true to you
Your a total Hottie to boot! :worship:

Rave On!!
 

tank girl

New Member
heh...so being a "hottie" is an automatic passport to wreaking board havoc and raving about everything and nothing, then?....hmmmm.
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Well yes as you've probably already learned
being an attractive young female has certain advantages over being an old fat hag lol

Well you've passed the first test of being a self hating Liberal, you did not come back denying that you are attractive. Lessee how you do on the subsequent tests.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
I just can't seem to get Heston out of my mind. Soylent Green was on TMC today too :D
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
It's killing me. All the paranoid chatter from the kook fringe right of 20, 30, 50 years ago has come back to bite us in the ass. I was laughing at the Moral Majority as well as the next guy & here we sit, in their prediction...damn near to a tee.
 

tank girl

New Member
Winky said:
Well yes as you've probably already learned
being an attractive young female has certain advantages over being an old fat hag lol

Well you've passed the first test of being a self hating Liberal, you did not come back denying that you are attractive. Lessee how you do on the subsequent tests.


Attractive or not - I'd prefer to be judged for my opinions and hated than loved for the sake of my appearance...thanks...:shrug:
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
tank girl said:
heh...so being a "hottie" is an automatic passport to wreaking board havoc and raving about everything and nothing, then?....hmmmm.
Um, yeah. :shrug:

You're talking to guys here and obviously forgetting that at the very end we are indeed very shallow people.


Although I will have to say that for the most part I agree with your lengthy and slightly wandering prose.
 

freako104

Well-Known Member
Gato_Solo said:
So now you just put that child into the hands of the two people that wanted him/her dead in the first place. Nice choice. Instead of a relatively painless death, you have condemned this child to a life of hell with parents who do not love him/her.




no. I said adoption. You are the one who said that isnt an option. Why I dont know. And a no win sitiuation because I am pro choice? Ok then. When the mothers life is in danger I guess it is still not ok. so lose the mother or the baby. what do you choose
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
freako104 said:
no. I said adoption. You are the one who said that isnt an option. Why I dont know. And a no win sitiuation because I am pro choice? Ok then. When the mothers life is in danger I guess it is still not ok. so lose the mother or the baby. what do you choose

I gave you a choice...Life, or death. There was never a third option. You added that third option in order to make your choice easy. Too bad. This isn't about what you want in this scenario. And this has nothing to do with being 'pro choice'. As for your final question, we'll deal with that after you deal with my scenario, as I wrote it. ;)
 

freako104

Well-Known Member
adoption is always an option. It means life. now you choose. Baby life or mothers life.thats exactly how you did it to me.
 
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