Oh those progressive Liberals!

[Gato_Solo]

adoption is always an option. It means life. now you choose. Baby life or mothers life.thats exactly how you did it to me.

Not till you choose. No adoption. That's not part of this, and never was. You may not like the choices that are here, that's fine, but you cannot change the test because you don't like the question.

 

[freako104]

WTF? You limit my choices without a thought. My answer stands at let the child live and give it up to adoption. And my question is exactly what you did to me. SO now its on you. I answered. your turn

 

[Gato_Solo]

WTF? You limit my choices without a thought. My answer stands at let the child live and give it up to adoption. And my question is exactly what you did to me. SO now its on you. I answered. your turn

No. You didn't. You keep saying adoption, even though I stated that adoption is not one of the choices. There is no adoption option in this. I worded it that way on purpose. If you wish to back out, and give no answer, I can understand that, but not this. It's a complete dodge of the question.

 

[MrBishop]

Bish, I've tried to be understanding with you. I've tried to help you see sense. But really, you need help.

Tell me Bish, how's your memory? huh? Tell me, do you remember where V3.0 spend the first days of his life? Do ya? I do. I remember him trembling in that damn incubator, with tubes stuck outta his head.

Tell me Bish. Do you remember Laura? Do you remember how many children she's had? How many nieces and nephews I'm supposed to have? Do you remember how many graves are on top of that hill? Do you remember how light that casket was? I do.

No...I don't remember anything about Laura..I don't know any of the stories, I don't know how many graves there are on that hill. The last time I was on that hill was back in 1987-88. I'm not arguing about the horrors of losing a child. I'm also not arguing about where v3 spent time in the hospital except for where I said that

You damn well know that YOU, me and everyone else on this damn board would do whatever possible to save their child.

This isn't about doing what's possible to save a child. I'll post again once I've read the rest of the diatribes.

I'll post again once I've read the rest of the diatribes on here.

 

[MrBishop]

A Doctors job is to save lives and do whatever is possible to heal injuries and diseases. Its the hypocratic oath...and it is set in stone.

The Doc will, with your permission/order or that of your family (if you cannot answer for yourself) either change treatment types, avoid certain treatments or methodology (religious reasons), or will avoid all treatment (in the case of DNRs).

The Doc will discontinue treatment if you/family wish it....and unplug all aparatus keeping you alive as well (euthanasia). Some doctors will extend the removal of such aparatus with a selected 'overdose' to help death come more rapidly (also euthanasia). Some doctors will 'assist in suicide' though few and far between.

In this case, we're talking about discontinuing reucitating machines (unhooking the breathing machine, the pacemaker, the IV etc...) so that the person is left to live or die on their own. We're also talking about speeding the death along in order to reduce pain and suffering associated with a natural death.

So...you've got a newborn. Shortly after birth, the newborn goes into cardiac arrest and is recussitated...the newborn is hooked up to a breathing machine, but the heart doesn't beat on its own...so the newborn gets a pacemaker. Further exams show that the newborns brain is not intact. The newborn is braindead...but still 'alive' because of the machines doing the breathing and heart-beating for it. The IV will feed it indefinately and so long as the machines work..the newborn is alive.

You are the parent of this newborn. The doctors ask "How long do we keep your child alive on these machines?" and you say

a) Forever...I don't believe in euthanasia...make every effort to keep my child alive.
b) What are the chances that my child will come out of it and lead a semi-normal life?

Most parent will answer 'B' first and foremost.

The Doctors will then tell you that the child will never come off the machines, will never be 'normal' and will never be conscious. They might live on the machines for 3-4 weeks before the machines will no longer be able to keep the child alive. You talk it over with everone involved (wife/hubby/your folx/your priest etc etc) and make the following decision.

a) Keep my child alive until you can't anymore.
b) Allow my child to die of natural causes...unplug the machines.

IMHO if you pick option 'A' - you're not thinking about your child..you're thinking about yourself. Keeping your child alive to make yourself feel better. You don't suffer emotionally, but your child suffers physically.

If you pick option 'B' you will suffer emotionally because it is a harsh decision, but your child will not suffer physically.

The end result...the child is still dead.

The real question - how do you feel about your decision?

 

[freako104]

No. You didn't. You keep saying adoption, even though I stated that adoption is not one of the choices. There is no adoption option in this. I worded it that way on purpose. If you wish to back out, and give no answer, I can understand that, but not this. It's a complete dodge of the question.

I dont back out when questioned. I know why you worded it that way. It was not an accident or any of that bullshit. I answered it that way for that exact reason as well. It is not a dodge of the question. It was an answer you did not like

 

[Gato_Solo]

I dont back out when questioned. I know why you worded it that way. It was not an accident or any of that bullshit. I answered it that way for that exact reason as well. It is not a dodge of the question. It was an answer you did not like

It's like asking you a direct yes, or no, question, and you answer with maybe. It's not your answer I don't like...You're trying to change the question to suit your answer, and that is what I have a disagreement with.

 

[freako104]

I changed it? Sorry but I chose my answer. And I did so simply because you were the one who wanted to limit my choices. If it is life or death then there is the choice of the two. I chose life. or perhaps you didnt see that. Like I said. You didnt like my answer.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I changed it? Sorry but I chose my answer. And I did so simply because you were the one who wanted to limit my choices. If it is life or death then there is the choice of the two. I chose life. or perhaps you didnt see that. Like I said. You didnt like my answer.

Nope. I didn't like your addition to my scenario. By throwing adoption into the mix, you completely negated any choice by the parents on moral grounds. Changing the context of the question completely changes the outcome. You chose life for the reason of adoption. I removed the adoption from the equation, and you say I limit your choices. That choice was never offered to begin with, so how am I limiting something that was never offered?

 

[freako104]

Simple. Adoption, Abortion, keeping the baby are choices available. They all involve life or death. Hence you took it away. Possibly to make it look like I was some uncaring asshole or something. I chose life in this scenario. As I said I would only choose death for the terminally ill.

 

[HomeLAN]

Dude, he basically asked you if you wanted to go right or left, and you said, "up". You didn't answer the question as asked.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Simple. Adoption, Abortion, keeping the baby are choices available. They all involve life or death. Hence you took it away. Possibly to make it look like I was some uncaring asshole or something. I chose life in this scenario. As I said I would only choose death for the terminally ill.

Who said adoption was a choice available in this scenario. Certainly not me. You may choose life, but you may not choose adoption. Once we get over that part, we can move on to my answer to your question...just remember...adoption was never put out there by my hand, so adoption is not an option in my scenario.

 

[tank girl]

PT: Um, yeah.

You're talking to guys here and obviously forgetting that at the very end we are indeed very shallow people.

*lets out a tragic sigh*

message to god: "Why, WHYYY can't I just have been a lesbian?"

 

[Gato_Solo]

*lets out a tragic sigh*

message to god: "Why, WHYYY can't I just have been a lesbian?"

Cause lesbians don't do dick? I'm going to catch hell for that, but, c'est la vie...

 

[Professur]

*lets out a tragic sigh*

message to god: "Why, WHYYY can't I just have been a lesbian?"

Hmmm. That's sorta like saying "Thanks God I'm an athiest", isn't it?

 

[tank girl]

Hmmm. That's sorta like saying "Thanks God I'm an athiest", isn't it?

yup, don't ya just love the irony of it.

I'm particularly sarcastic, when it comes to things like that.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Okay...Scenario time...

You have an 18-month old son, who has become a burden to you, or your spouse. You both get together, and decide that euthanization is the best recourse. Here's your exception...run with it.

BTW...did I mention that the child is not sick?

Nowhere does it list adoption.

You then went on to say the following...

in that case there is adoption.

totally ignoring theparents believing that euthanasia was the best choice.
When I pointed out that adoption wasn't an option, you said the following...

that is the option I choose. Sorry but euthanasia is for the sick. You siad the baby wasnt sick. I am not going to kill him if he is going to live.

I replied with the following...

But the baby will die, eventually. What's the big deal? And once more...adoption is not a choice in this.

Your reply was...

that is still what I go by. If he has a chance to live let him live.

We go back and forth, finally coming to this point that I really wanted to make...

When abortion was first legalized, you couldn't get one past the first tri-mester. Now we're talking partial-birth abortions and euthanizing newborns, and you don't think that's arbitrary? There are now only 2 choices, freako...life, or death. You decide. Thumbs up, or thumbs down. No adoptions, and no orphanages. No easy way out.

To which you replied...

then life. I told you that I would consider the adoption before abortion

, even though adoption was not on the table. Still isn't...and placed this position at the forefront of my rebuttal.

So now you just put that child into the hands of the two people that wanted him/her dead in the first place. Nice choice. Instead of a relatively painless death, you have condemned this child to a life of hell with parents who do not love him/her.

 

[tank girl]

Cause lesbians don't do dick? I'm going to catch hell for that, but, c'est la vie...

No; because females tend to be more sophisticated, mature, intelligent, intuitive, empathetic, able to see past things like arrogance and shallowness far more easily than the mere male; rating significantly more worthy and beneficial as a companion -

Though, I guess this doesn't neccesarily mean that Men are completely inept - just that Men require much more time, effort, energy, education....patience- and interaction with them is particularly inclined to end up a complete mess: *sigh*

kinda like 3 year old's, really.

 

[Leslie]

couldn't disagree more

 

[Gato_Solo]

No; because females tend to be more sophisticated, mature, intelligent, intuitive, empathetic, able to see past things like arrogance and shallowness far more easily than the mere male; rating significantly more worthy and beneficial as a companion -

Though, I guess this doesn't neccesarily mean that Men are completely inept - just that Men require much more time, effort, energy, education....patience- and interaction with them is particularly inclined to end up a complete mess: *sigh*

kinda like 3 year old's, really.

Funny. Men see women the exact same way. Vain, shallow creatures who are easily swayed by the merest shine of a bauble, or the heady perfume of rampaging testosterone. Never willing to compromise, or admit when they are in the wrong on any issue, and prone to emotional outbursts. Indeed, women require not only time, effort, energy, education, and patience, but also a rather large supply of shiney things to keep their attention. Definitely trapped in the id stage of mental developement.