One Nation Under God

[MrBishop]

This looks like a job for Pedantic Man!

Never mind him...where's GOD ALMIGHTY when we need him

**On a side note: He's got 365 posts...one for every day of the year

 

[chcr]

This looks like a job for Pedantic Man!

Fuck that.

 

[FredFlash]

The Constitution forbids civil authority over religion. I view the issue from the perspective of the Jeffersonians.

Then why all the fuss when the people wish to display a religious symbol on public property?

What fuss, Blunder Buss?

A Christmas tree, for instance (even though the tree has nothing to do with Christmas)?

So why is it called a "Christmas" Tree?

So you never heard of the Supreme Case ruling prohibiting teacher-led prayers from schools? Before you jump on that bait, remember...teachers are citizens, too.

Cite the case and quote the ruling.

Show me where they petitioned for the removal of "any semblance of religion from public life." Unless, of course, you are misrepresenting the content of the petitions.

You sure are stuck in minutiae, aren't you?

The devil is in the details and why don't you like facts?

Nobody petitioned that

I see. Are you admitting that you lied?

...but thats the way it seems every year around December 25th.

Just the facts please.

You must be a lawyer...

I deny everything and admit nothing?

A lawyers job is to get his client off by exploiting loopholes in the law, if available, or creating loopholes if necessary. Note...this has nothing to do with guilt or innocence...

Where did you flunk legal ethics?

 

[chcr]

Where did you flunk legal ethics?

In todays world that's very much an oxymoron.

 

[FredFlash]

The founder's concept of a Christian nation comprehended a Godless Constitution......

This thread is intended for those who refuse to acknowledge that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation.

The founder's concept of a Christian nation comprehended a Godless Constitution which exempted religion from civil authority.

 

[chcr]

Re: The founder's concept of a Christian nation comprehended a Godless Constitution......

The founder's concept of a Christian nation comprehended a Godless Constitution which exempted religion from civil authority.

It was not founded as a "christian nation" (the founding fathers, however, used many of those "good christian values" that the religious right are so fond of quoting and so loathe to adhere to). It has very much become one though, despite the religious right's protestations. I think that most of all the founding fathers failed to realize what a bunch of self-righteous, whining idiots so many of us would become.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Re: The founder's concept of a Christian nation comprehended a Godless Constitution......

I think that most of all the founding fathers failed to realize what a bunch of self-righteous, whining idiots so many of us would become.

Nail on the head with that one. You have earned a gold star for the day; you may now be excused from the rest of the class to play quietly on your own.

 

[Gotholic]

It is hard to believe that you did not intend to mislead. The first quotation you provided was doctored to mislead your reader into understanding that the Engel Court held that all prayer was forbidden, when in fact only "the State's use of the Regents' prayer" was held unconstitutional ,because "an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government."

The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.
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I already addressed you on this here.

You really should review this thread over before you decided to come back into it.

Furthermore, the said prayer was this, "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country". Now that prayer is very general and it coincides with all the states in acknowledging that God exists.

 

[RDX]

The United States was certainly formed with Christian principals in mind. It was no way endorsed as the national religion, but virtually everything that was setup was based around some Christian principal. Now, this being the vastly dominant religion of the day, this was simply the default to base government and law. Anyone who says that the first form of the US government was secular is simply ignoring the facts. It was be almost impossible for them to create a secular form of government with their beliefs.

How much do we really care about that though? Sure, there was a heavy Christian bias when the government and laws were first created, but does that mean that any of it has relevance today? If the population is not overwhelmingly Christian, do the laws of this country still need to have a Christian flavor? I say no. The current laws should reflect the current world. Since Christianity was not explicitly stated as having role in government, its influence can be taken away as easily as it was instituted…for better or worse. Yes, Christianity has been slowly been removed from the government, laws, and public institutions; but is there really anything wrong with that?

 

[Gotholic]

The United States was certainly formed with Christian principals in mind. It was no way endorsed as the national religion, but virtually everything that was setup was based around some Christian principal. Now, this being the vastly dominant religion of the day, this was simply the default to base government and law. Anyone who says that the first form of the US government was secular is simply ignoring the facts. It was be almost impossible for them to create a secular form of government with their beliefs.

How much do we really care about that though? Sure, there was a heavy Christian bias when the government and laws were first created, but does that mean that any of it has relevance today? If the population is not overwhelmingly Christian, do the laws of this country still need to have a Christian flavor? I say no. The current laws should reflect the current world. Since Christianity was not explicitly stated as having role in government, its influence can be taken away as easily as it was instituted…for better or worse. Yes, Christianity has been slowly been removed from the government, laws, and public institutions; but is there really anything wrong with that?

The Founding Fathers founded a republic, not a democracy.

 

[chcr]

The United States was certainly formed with Christian principals in mind. It was no way endorsed as the national religion, but virtually everything that was setup was based around some Christian principal. Now, this being the vastly dominant religion of the day, this was simply the default to base government and law. Anyone who says that the first form of the US government was secular is simply ignoring the facts. It was be almost impossible for them to create a secular form of government with their beliefs.

How much do we really care about that though? Sure, there was a heavy Christian bias when the government and laws were first created, but does that mean that any of it has relevance today? If the population is not overwhelmingly Christian, do the laws of this country still need to have a Christian flavor? I say no. The current laws should reflect the current world. Since Christianity was not explicitly stated as having role in government, its influence can be taken away as easily as it was instituted…for better or worse. Yes, Christianity has been slowly been removed from the government, laws, and public institutions; but is there really anything wrong with that?

A lot of people seem to think so.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: The founder's concept of a Christian nation comprehended a Godless Constitution..

It was not founded as a "christian nation."

The United States Government was founded as a "Christian Nation" in the narrow sense that one of the fundamental principles of republican government was no human authority over religion, which, in the late 1780's, was considered by many of the Liberal American Protestants, to be a Christian Principle. The Liberal Protestant argument for Church State Separation was grounded in Christ's command to "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's", and his claim that "my Kingdom is not of this world." Some formulations of the arguments rely upon Saint Paul's declaration that "each of us will give an account of himself [regarding his faith] to God."

the founding fathers, however, used many of those "good christian values" that the religious right are so fond of quoting and so loathe to adhere to.

What exactly and precisely were these good Christian values?

I think that most of all the founding fathers failed to realize what a bunch of self-righteous, whining idiots so many of us would become.

Some of the founders, such as Oliver Ellsworth, were idiots when it came to the rights of conscience; and the other founders, such as James Madison, knew that they would try to undermine the separation of religion and government embodied in the Godless Secular Constitution of 1788.

From Ellsworth's view, civil government "has authority, and...duty, to take order that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordainances of God duly settled, administrated, and observed."

The authority for Ellsworth's view was as follows:

ISA 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. PSA 122:9 Because of the house of the Lord our God I will seek thy good. EZR 7:23 Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons? 25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. 26 And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment. 27 Blessed be the Lord God of our fathers, which hath put such a thing as this in the king's heart, to beautify the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem: 28 And hath extended mercy unto me before the king, and his counsellers, and before all the king's mighty princes. And I was strengthened as the hand of the Lord my God was upon me, and I gathered together out of Israel chief men to go up with me. LEV 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. DEU 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. 6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers. 12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, etc. 2KI 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. (1CH 13:1-8; 2KI 24:1-25) 2CH 34:33 And Josiah took away all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israel, and made all that were present in Israel to serve, even to serve the Lord their God. And all his days they departed not from following the Lord, the God of their fathers. 2CH 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

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[SouthernN'Proud]

Christianity has been slowly been removed from the government, laws, and public institutions; but is there really anything wrong with that?

Ask Sodom and Gommorrah. Oh, wait...you can't ask them.

 

[FredFlash]

It was no way endorsed as the national religion, but virtually everything that was setup was based around some Christian principal.

Please, give us some examples of what you are talking about.

Now, this being the vastly dominant religion of the day, this was simply the default to base government and law.

Please, give us some examples of what you are talking about.

Anyone who says that the first form of the US government was secular is simply ignoring the facts.

What facts?

It was be almost impossible for them to create a secular form of government with their beliefs.

What beliefs?

 

[RDX]

When I said "Is there anything wrong with that?", I was not referring to changes in society, or the shifting of moral standards. I was referring to the legality of it all. Yes, we are technically a constiutional republic, but what does that change really? Instead of the people voting directly on laws, we vote for officials to make the laws (just 1 more step). If the people vote for officials who actively remove religion from the public sector, then so be it. YOU elected them afterall. If it's not cemented in the constitution, then it's bound to be changed. Now the question of whether it is good for the nation is another matter...

 

[FredFlash]

I’m, of course, not one of those people. I’m going to show you many quotes by our founding fathers that support our Christian heritage and various other facts.

Before I get into things I would like to give you a little tour of our nation’s capitol…

The Supreme Court building portrays Moses holding the Ten Commandments through which the voice of God thunders "Thou shalt not murder."

First, the meaning of the Constitution regarding religion and its proper relationship with the civil government is to be gathered from the words of the document, not the depictions on the Supreme Court Building

Second, there is no depiction, on the outside of the U. S. Supreme Court Building, of Moses holding the Ten Commandments . However, there is one of him, with Solon and Confucius, where Moses is holding two blank tablets. Click the link below to view "Moses and the blank tablets" on the Supreme Court Building.
http://www.ten-commandments.us/ten_commandments/publicdisplay.html

​

It appears that the separation of church and state, in the 1930's, may have forbid the display of the actual text of the Mosaic laws by civil authority.

 

[Gato_Solo]

The Constitution forbids civil authority over religion. I view the issue from the perspective of the Jeffersonians.

Duh...More like Madisonians, but...

What fuss, Blunder Buss?

Ahh. Another personal attack. Surely you've seen the news stories. Everybody else seems to have. Looks like ignorance of the very subject you are arguing for.

So why is it called a "Christmas" Tree?

Beats me. I wasn't the one who named it such. Why is this one thing so important to you I don't know...

Cite the case and quote the ruling.

How about this...you cite the case and the ruling, as you obviously need to brush up on the past 40 years of cases in this venue. Guess COMMON KNOWLEDGE of the subject, which everyone else seems to have, fails to register as important on your scope...

The devil is in the details and why don't you like facts?

Not in this case, sir. You wish to argue over trifling matters, then you should take this to "Kiddie Korner".

I see. Are you admitting that you lied?

Nope. You, however, seem to be confused as to who is saying what...

Just the facts please.

You have them. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them less true.

I deny everything and admit nothing?

Where did you flunk legal ethics?

Never took the class...and you still haven't answered the questions I raised, or provided a source for your post I called you on.

 

[FredFlash]

I’m, of course, not one of those people. I’m going to show you many quotes by our founding fathers that support our Christian heritage and various other facts.

Before I get into things I would like to give you a little tour of our nation’s capitol…

The Capitol Rotunda contains eight massive oil paintings, each depicting a major event in history. Four of these paintings portray Jesus Christ and the Bible: 1) Columbus landing on the shores of the New World, and holding high the cross of Jesus Christ, 2) a group of Dutch pilgrims gathered around a large, opened Bible, 3) a cross being planted in the soil, commemorating the discovery of the Mississippi River by the Explorer De Soto, and 4) the Christian baptism of the Indian convert Pocahontas.

Since when do we gather the meaning of the Constitution, as regards freedom of conscience, from oil paintings rather than the words of the document?

 

[FredFlash]

...you still haven't answered the questions I raised, or provided a source for your post I called you on.

What are the questions you believe I have not answered?

 

[Gato_Solo]

What are the questions you believe I have not answered?

Looks like we've got a 'bot here.