Saturdays Vote

[Bobby Hogg]

exactly the same way that you assume he couldnt get a copy of it. How did he find out there was an election? no tv, did a carrier pidgeon deliver the news to him? Im sure he went into town more than just this one time to vote.
And he didnt think to ask for it or some type of information when he showed up to vote? I would think if i really wanted to know what i was voting for and couldnt get the information before hand, he atleast would have thought to ask before he actually voted. but like i said a lazy voter.

I didn't assume anything, I just asked you a question. You're making enough assumptions for the both of us.

The problem with modern constitutions is that they are often large, long-winded documents written in legalese and thus are not generally accessible to the voting public.

 

[MrBishop]

What makes you think that trying to force the various sections of the Iraqi community into a single democratic state will ever work?

I was only half joking when I talked about asking Saddam for tips, because his rule is probably the only way Iraq can be held together. Without a brutal autocratic regime, it's going to be virtually impossible to hold a state together where several different ethnic and religious groups are vying for absolute power.

So why not split them, and let them have absolute power over their own domains? Iraq was only ever a nation bordered upon colonial lines. Trying to maintain these in spite of the ancient differences between tribes will prove fruitless in a democracy.

I don't think that enforcing democracy, regardless of circumstances, will ever work. Democracy and freedom has to be fought for from within for it to become precious enough to continue fighting for.

The issue of splitting them is the where. Where do the borders lay. Georgraphy makes that a big issue. Arrable land, potable water, access to oil pumps etc will become HUGE issues if the splitting of the lands isn't done correctly...and it wouldn't be done correctly. Then you'd have the issue of people moving from one part of the country to another in order to be on the correct side of the border when the country does split up.
Do you split them up along religious lines? If so, then you get multiple Theocracies who don't like each other.

I don't see any easy way out. The people in Iraq are going to have to learn to get along or they'll find themselves another Saddam and they're going to get invaded again.

 

[Professur]

I didn't assume anything, I just asked you a question. You're making enough assumptions for the both of us.

The problem with modern constitutions is that they are often large, long-winded documents written in legalese and thus are not generally accessible to the voting public.

and ......?


So what you're saying is either that he should shut the fuck up because he couldn't understand it anyways, or they should write the single most important document for that country's future, the basis for all future laws, in language that a 4 year old can comprehend?

 

[Bobby Hogg]

I don't think that enforcing democracy, regardless of circumstances, will ever work. Democracy and freedom has to be fought for from within for it to become precious enough to continue fighting for.

The issue of splitting them is the where. Where do the borders lay. Georgraphy makes that a big issue. Arrable land, potable water, access to oil pumps etc will become HUGE issues if the splitting of the lands isn't done correctly...and it wouldn't be done correctly. Then you'd have the issue of people moving from one part of the country to another in order to be on the correct side of the border when the country does split up.
Do you split them up along religious lines? If so, then you get multiple Theocracies who don't like each other.

I don't see any easy way out. The people in Iraq are going to have to learn to get along or they'll find themselves another Saddam and they're going to get invaded again.

Wouldn't a multilateral process of division be better in the short-term, rather than trying to implement a system of government that is liable to collapse into absolute civil war and an inevitable split in the future anyway?

Essentially, Iraq is already at civil war but with the US and British military maintaining a semblance of security and order, policing it.

Also, having another Saddam would not necessarily provoke another invasion as long as any future autocrat played ball with the USA. This has been demonstrated time and time again.

A contemporary example would be Uzbekistan, where Islam Karimov has, until a couple of months ago, enjoyed military aid from the USA with which to torture and murder his own people in return for bases from which the US could launch its attacks on Iraq. The relationship has only soured, somewhat, after the US gave a limp-wristed expression of disapproval after the Uzbeks murdered several hundred, perhaps thousands, of their own civilians earlier this year.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

and ......?


So what you're saying is either that he should shut the fuck up because he couldn't understand it anyways, or they should write the single most important document for that country's future, the basis for all future laws, in language that a 4 year old can comprehend?

No. What I am saying is that voting on a constitution is hardly relevant to most people's lives. It's not a matter of being lazy, it's a case where this man may or not live in conditions that any poster here cannot imagine and thus assumptions should not be based upon a throw-away comment in an article.

I'm not saying a constitution should be written so a 4 year old can read it, only so that a voting adult without a degree in law can comprehend it.

When it comes to things like medical procedures to be sought consent for by the general public, they have to be written (in the UK and the US) at the defined level a 12 year old can understand. Why should legal documents be any different if the general layperson is going to be asked to give their consent for them to be implemented?

 

[Professur]

I'm not saying a constitution should be written so a 4 year old can read it, only so that a voting adult without a degree in law can comprehend it.

Newsflash for you. Someone fitting that exact desciption sued McDonalds because he spilled coffee into his own lap. Joe Q Turban is exactly as stupid a Joe Q Miami. Remember, the folks that couldn't even punch holes in a sheet of paper right? Anyone with any interest knows exactly what their new consitution says, if only in the Coles Notes form. Mr. Turban has the same resources as the average farmer in Kansas for collecting information, and the same damn excuses for not informing himself. It could have been written by a four year old in crayon and he'd still be copping excuses.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Newsflash for you. Someone fitting that exact desciption sued McDonalds because he spilled coffee into his own lap. Joe Q Turban is exactly as stupid a Joe Q Miami. Remember, the folks that couldn't even punch holes in a sheet of paper right? Anyone with any interest knows exactly what their new consitution says, if only in the Coles Notes form. Mr. Turban has the same resources as the average farmer in Kansas for collecting information, and the same damn excuses for not informing himself. It could have been written by a four year old in crayon and he'd still be copping excuses.

Well, you see, constitutions just aren't very interesting. Believe me, I tried to read the new EU constitution (which has been binned anyway) and when you're being asked to vote on a new constitution you are bombarded from several sides by different interpretations of the same document, which is generally incomprehensible in itself without a law degree.

You, and anyone else who expects rural folk living in a country where the infrastructure has been obliterated and the economy ruined in a war to have time to sift through a large legal document and care about it, you really need to have a quiet word with yourself.

 

[Professur]

Um, when it pertains to my future, my kids future, and everyone around me's future .....



But then, you're new here, and probably haven't taken the time to read up on other people's views on thing like the human flock. You really should do that. Then we'll talk more.


Oh, and if you want to read so good legal documents, you should look up the Declaration of Arbroath. Now there's some good reading.

It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

I talk to humans every day.

Most people only come to regard legal technicalities when they become relevant to them.

This vote is merely a formality, anyway. If it came back "no" they'd just be voting on it again and again until the answer becomes "yes." Which won't happen, because it'll be "yes" anyway.

 

[MrBishop]

It's very different in that the populace is being asked to vote on it. Most constitutions aren't. The Canadian wasn't voted on by the people, neither was the American, nor the Declaration of Asbroath for that matter. You'd be hard-pressed to find one that was.

 

[MrBishop]

Nationality: Noun and adjective--Iraqi(s)
Population (2002 est.): 24,011,816
Ethnic groups: Arab 75%-80%, Kurd 15%-20%, Turkman, Chaldean, Assyrian, or others less than 5%
Religions: Shia Muslim 60%, Sunni Muslim 32%-37%, Christian 3%, Jewish and Yezidi less than 1%
Languages: Arabic (official); more than 70% are Arabic speakers, Kurdish (official since 28 June 2004), Assyrian, Armenian
Literacy: 58%.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

It's very different in that the populace is being asked to vote on it. Most constitutions aren't. The Canadian wasn't voted on by the people, neither was the American, nor the Declaration of Asbroath for that matter. You'd be hard-pressed to find one that was.

This is true, which is why I mentioned the new EU constitution. It was a long, tedious legal document, and during the referendums people were given different interpretations of it by different parties without being able to understand it directly themselves.

And this would be in peaceful, wealthy countries where the populace is relatively educated compared to the Iraqis.

Incidentally, I understand Iraq was a very affluent country before the UN sanctions.

 

[Inkara1]

I'm sure some people in Iraq were rich, but unless Iraq's "poor" had cable TV, microwaves, multiple vehicles and 700-thread-count Egyptian sheets, I wouldn't say it was an affluent country.

 

[samcurry]

I didn't assume anything, I just asked you a question. You're making enough assumptions for the both of us.

The problem with modern constitutions is that they are often large, long-winded documents written in legalese and thus are not generally accessible to the voting public.

No you didnt, but you were sure to imply that i know nothing of what is happening over there. Human nature is the same everywhere. But you can hide behind your selfrighteousness and make all the excuses you want but reality is he wasnt smart enough to even ask a simple question when he got there.

Oh and you even said it yourself "to sift through a large legal document and care about it" thats the problem he didnt care enough about it to ask.

 

[Nixy]

Quebec's actually pushing this as the form for the next referendum. And this is how the votes for the mega-cities merger -demerger referendii were done.

The US border patrol better become very fluent, very quickly in Newfinese if you guys seperate cause I'll bet that will be the route most will take when travelling to and from the rock...

 

[flavio]

Seems like this is a bit of a mess...

Iraq's election commission announced Monday that officials were investigating "unusually high" numbers of "yes" votes in about a dozen provinces during Iraq's landmark referendum on a new constitution, raising questions about irregularities in the balloting.

Meanwhile, word of the review came as Sunni Arab leaders repeated accusations of fraud after initial reports from the provinces suggested the constitution had passed. Among the Sunni allegations are that police took ballot boxes from heavily "no" districts, and that some "yes" areas had more votes than registered voters.



The Electoral Commission made no mention of fraud, and an official with knowledge of the election process cautioned that it was too early to say whether the unusual numbers were incorrect or if they would affect the outcome.



But questions about the numbers raised tensions over Saturday's referendum, which has already sharply divided Iraqis. Most of the Shiite majority and the Kurds — the coalition which controls the government — support the charter, while most Sunni Arabs sharply opposed a document they fear will tear Iraq to pieces and leave them weak and out of power.


But the commission found that the number of "yes" votes in most provinces appeared "unusually high" and would be audited, with random samples taken from ballot boxes to test them, said the commission's head, Adil al-Lami.


Al-Mutlaq said soldiers broke into a polling station in a Sunni district of the Diyala city of Baqouba and took ballot boxes heavy with "no" votes and that later results showed a "yes" majority. His claims could not be independently verified.



"Bottom line, we can say that the whole operation witnessed interference from government forces," he said.


President Bush said Monday that the vote was an indication that Iraqis want to settle disputes peacefully.


On Tuesday, insurgents shot and killed an adviser to one of Iraq's top Sunni Arab officials as he drove to work in Baghdad, police said.



The shooting of Ayed Abdul Ghani occurred in new Baghdad, an eastern section of the capital, at about 7:45 a.m., said police Maj. Falah Al-Mohammedawi.


In new violence, the U.S. military said that its warplanes and helicopters bombed two western villages Sunday, killing an estimated 70 militants near a site where five American soldiers died in a roadside blast. Residents said at least 39 of the dead were civilians, including children.


More...

 

[Gato_Solo]

Seems like this is a bit of a mess...

And how different is that than election day in...say...Chicago during the Daly mayoral races?

 

[Gonz]

Democracy and freedom has to be fought for from within for it to become precious enough to continue fighting for.

Another who has forgotten the past. Emperor Hirohito & the Fuerher may be surprised by the outcome.

 

[Gonz]

"unusually high" numbers of "yes" votes

That's how landslides work

 

[flavio]

That's how landslides work

Landslides usually involve more votes than voters?