U.N. report: U.S. committed acts 'amounting to torture' at Gitmo

flavio

Banned
catocom said:
Flavio, if you want to see what REAL traitors are, here ya go.....
Encouraging the president and US to ignore the Constitution and break the law is also criminal, un-American, and traitorous. Or unpatriotic, servile, and morally treasonable....

MB00510.jpg
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
flavio said:
Encouraging the president and US to ignore the Constitution and break the law is also criminal, un-American, and traitorous. Or unpatriotic, servile, and morally treasonable....
I never made such encouragements. I apparently interpret the constitution
differently than you do. You must a have also misinterpreted what "I" said.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
I knew you couldn't resist. :D

OK, let's do it like this....
You put up a numbered list mixed with interrogation, torture, meanness... things
to do to someone, and I'll answer yes, or no, on if "I" think it's torture.

Now be somewhat specific, but short....
If you say "beating" in general, that won't do because there are different levels,
all the way to the point of death.
So say like "beating with X until xxx"
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
flavio said:
Lame attempt to justify it by "greying out" the definition. You know Bush is into it or he wouldn't have added his little bit onto the McCain bill.

Torture

Do a little search there's examples everywhere.

Once again, you didn't say anything except to naysay what I wrote. You say that we're using torture. I said that the definition you used is wrong, so you put up another that's slightly different. Nice try, but it won't wash. I have a suggestion to you. Do your own search, since there are examples everywhere. Your constant maneuvering to avoid the answer are getting tedious and boring.
 

flavio

Banned
Gato_Solo said:
Once again, you didn't say anything except to naysay what I wrote. You say that we're using torture. I said that the definition you used is wrong, so you put up another that's slightly different. Nice try, but it won't wash. I have a suggestion to you. Do your own search, since there are examples everywhere. Your constant maneuvering to avoid the answer are getting tedious and boring.
What the hell are you reading? I didn't put up "another" definition. I linked examples of torture.

What "answer" am I avoiding. I didn't know there was a question. I just see you avoiding the fact that there have been many cases of torture and ignoring the fact that Bush is so into it that he had to add something onto the McCain bill to let him do it.

First catocom says it's ok for the Bush administration to break the law.
Now both of you want to quibble about the definition to dance around the subject.


Human Rights Watch World Report 2006
U.S. Policy of Abuse Undermines Rights Worldwide

(Washington, D.C, January 18, 2006) – New evidence demonstrated in 2005 that torture and mistreatment have been a deliberate part of the Bush administration’s counterterrorism strategy, undermining the global defense of human rights, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing its World Report 2006 World Report 2006: Audio Commentaries .
" Fighting terrorism is central to the human rights cause. But using illegal tactics against alleged terrorists is both wrong and counterproductive. "

The evidence showed that abusive interrogation cannot be reduced to the misdeeds of a few low-ranking soldiers, but was a conscious policy choice by senior U.S. government officials. The policy has hampered Washington’s ability to cajole or pressure other states into respecting international law, said the 532-page volume’s introductory essay.

“Fighting terrorism is central to the human rights cause,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “But using illegal tactics against alleged terrorists is both wrong and counterproductive.”

Roth said the illegal tactics were fueling terrorist recruitment, discouraging public assistance of counterterrorism efforts and creating a pool of unprosecutable detainees.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
VII. Arbitrary Arrest, torture and ill-treatment of criminal suspects

With a dismissive wave I refuse to read any further. Any group that lumps ill-treatment & torture under the same banner & calls then enemy criminal suspects is too biased to bother with.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
flavio said:
First catocom says it's ok for the Bush administration to break the law.
Now both of you want to quibble about the definition to dance around the subject.
There you got saying I said something I didn't.
If you want to accuse me of something like that, please quote a post of something.
and
I'm not quibbling. I was making a point.
You obliviously think slapping someone is torture, dripping water on them, playing
music to keep them awake, not giving them 3 meals a day....
I consider those LEGAL interrogation techniques.
 

flavio

Banned
Gonz said:
With a dismissive wave I refuse to read any further.
Yeah, that's called denial.... Figures.

Any group that lumps ill-treatment & torture under the same banner & calls then enemy criminal suspects is too biased to bother with.
That's not bias. If you describe a criminal as a thief and a murderer it doesn't mean both crimes are under the same "banner"....and what's the problem calling people who are suspected "suspects"?

Here's a suspect who faced execution without evidence. No big deal though.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
flavio said:
What the hell are you reading? I didn't put up "another" definition. I linked examples of torture.

Yep. I expeted as much...

flavio said:
What "answer" am I avoiding. I didn't know there was a question. I just see you avoiding the fact that there have been many cases of torture and ignoring the fact that Bush is so into it that he had to add something onto the McCain bill to let him do it.

First catocom says it's ok for the Bush administration to break the law.
Now both of you want to quibble about the definition to dance around the subject.

Once again, you ignore completely what torture is, and try to show what others say it is. That's the answer you're avoiding, and doing a piss-poor job of it as well. As for quibbling...I believe you are the defining member of that term when you are at a loss for answers...such as now.
 

flavio

Banned
Gato_Solo said:
Yep. I expeted as much...
and I expected you to dance around it and not have a response.

Once again, you ignore completely what torture is, and try to show what others say it is.
Yes, like the UN for instance and not Gato.

That's the answer you're avoiding, and doing a piss-poor job of it as well.
Good, cause that's still not a question. Here's a question, what do you consider the "right" definition of torture? Who created that definition?

when you are at a loss for answers...such as now.
and rightly so...since there's a loss of questions. So care to try to make a point yet?


November 2005

-173 detainees found in an Iraqi government bunker in Baghdad were found starved, beaten and tortured. [67] [68]

-Colin Powell's former Chief of Staff Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson stated in an interview with Amy Goodman on Nov 22 2005 that:

"the difficulties [our troops face] come from the two decisions that I had the most insight into that were made in this more or less alternative decision-making process. And those two decisions were the inept and incompetent planning for post-invasion Iraq, and [...] the decision... from that alternative decision-making process to depart from the Geneva Conventions and from international law, in general.

"[The President's memorandum said] the spirit of Geneva would be adhered to... consistent with military necessity. [...] It did not say 'consistent with national security demands.' It did not say 'consistent with the demands of the war on terror.' It said 'consistent with military needs.' Now, military needs are very simple and clear to a man like me who spent 31 years in the military. It means that if one of my buddy's life is threatened or my life is threatened, I can take drastic action. I can even shoot a detainee. And I can expect not to be punished under Geneva, or at least if I am court-martialed, I have a defense. It doesn't mean that I can take a detainee in a cold, dark cell in Bagram, Afghanistan, for example, in December 2002, shackled to the wall, and pour cold water on him at intervals when the outside temperature is 50 degrees anyway, and eventually kill him, which is what happened."
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
When the Army dropped six criminal counts against Yee in March, military officials said they did so to avoid making sensitive information public —not because he was innocent.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
-173 detainees found in an Iraqi government bunker in Baghdad were found starved, beaten and tortured. [67] [68]

Strike one...

"[The President's memorandum said] the spirit of Geneva would be adhered to... consistent with military necessity. [...] It did not say 'consistent with national security demands.' It did not say 'consistent with the demands of the war on terror.' It said 'consistent with military needs.' Now, military needs are very simple and clear to a man like me who spent 31 years in the military. It means that if one of my buddy's life is threatened or my life is threatened, I can take drastic action. I can even shoot a detainee. And I can expect not to be punished under Geneva, or at least if I am court-martialed, I have a defense. It doesn't mean that I can take a detainee in a cold, dark cell in Bagram, Afghanistan, for example, in December 2002, shackled to the wall, and pour cold water on him at intervals when the outside temperature is 50 degrees anyway, and eventually kill him, which is what happened."


First bold...I believe you are one of the formost objectors to shooting a detainee regardless of provocation. Even though you haven't come right out and said it, your posts all imply it. Strike two...

Second bold...The persons in charge and the persons carrying out this act were duly punished...strike three. You're out.

Let me know when you can find something that was waived or ignored. Better yet...let me know when you can come up with a definition of torture that is actually torture, and not the UN's watered-down version which can include long jail sentences, and any form of interrogation that they currently do not like...
 

flavio

Banned
Gato_Solo said:
173 detainees found in an Iraqi government bunker in Baghdad were found starved, beaten and tortured.
You can torture people if you do it in a bunker? Strike one.

Even though you haven't come right out and said it, your posts all imply it.
Usual tactic of attributing things to me that I didn't say. Strike two...

Second bold...The persons in charge and the persons carrying out this act were duly punished...
Unsupported claim strike three. You're out.

Let me know when you can find something that was waived or ignored.
Here's few...............

According to the Washington Post, the coalition forces regularly use "torture-like" methods during the interrogation of suspects. Such methods were reportedly applied to people to find the hiding place of Saddam Hussein in Operation Red Dawn. British troops have also tortured Iraqi prisoners of war. Such treatment violates article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention and the USA and Britain's official policies on combat and occupation. Despite numerous complaints by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, it took a year before the first US soldier was court-martialed for their actions concerning abuse of Iraqis.

International observers have contrasted this with the Iraqi treatment of Jessica Lynch.

Unknown date

A photograph leaked after the initial set shows Spc. Sabrina Harman smiling and giving a thumbs up next to the body of Manadel al-Jamadi. Jamadi was reportedly beaten to death during interrogations in the prison's showers. [2] Death certificates repeatedly stated that prisoners had died "while sleeping", and of "natural reasons". Iraqi doctors are not allowed to investigate even when death certificates are obviously forged. No reports of investigations against US military doctors who forged death certificates have been reported.

Spring 2003

A US veteran sergeant reports witnessing torture in Iraq and the cover-up activities of his commanding officers. Honorably discharged US veteran, Sergeant Frank "Greg" Ford reports that he witnessed war crimes in Samarra, Iraq. (Democracy Now !, Wikinews)

Before May 2003

British Lieutenant Colonel Tim Collins was alleged by US Army Major Re Biastre to have been responsible for mistreatment of Iraqi civilians and prisoners of war. Lieutenant Colonel Collins was later cleared of these charges by a tribunal.

May 12, 2003

Lieutenant colonel Vic Harris reported that Staff Sergeant Scott A. McKenzie who worked at a Pennsylvania Department of Corrections boot-camp-style prison, and Specialist Timothy F. Canjar: held prisoners' legs, encouraged others to then kick them in the groin, stepped on their previously injured arms, and made false sworn statements to the USA Army Criminal Investigation Division.

They received "general, under honorable conditions" discharges, were ordered to forfeit 2 months' salary, and returned to the USA.

Sergeant Shawna Edmondson, also involved in the case, received an "other-than-honorable" discharge, after she requested it instead of being court-martialed.
[6]

Hossam Shaltout said the abuse at Camp Bucca was similar to that at Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse, and that his torture included scorpions placed on his body [7].
[edit]

May 24, 2003

Said Shabram died in custody, but no information of the investigation were made public. [8]

July to December 2003

The International Committee of the Red Cross submitted a detailed report to the U.S. Army in October 2003 about abuses in prisons, and the president of the Red Cross stated he had informed high-ranking members of the Bush administration about the abuses during a meeting in the White House in January 2004. A soldier came forward that month with photos of abuse that he found disturbing, some showed the stacking of prisoners into a human pyramid, with one prisoner's skin visibly bearing a slur written in English. Another showed a prisoner being forced to stand on a box with wires attached to his head and hands, who had reportedly been told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted. Photos released to the public later included a person being attacked by a guard dog, which the soldier involved described as being useful for intimidation of prisoners. [12] It was also reported that an Iraqi hired as a translator raped a juvenile male prisoner while a female soldier took pictures. [13] [14] No charges have been brought against the contractor because he does not fall under the military's jurisdiction; it is questionable whether any charges will or even can be brought against him.

Donald Rumsfeld had said that army and government had only been informed in January and not in detail. [15] On January 16, 2004, a press release was issued by the United States Central Command (CENTCOM [16]) stating that an investigation had been initiated in response to allegations of detainee abuse at an unspecified detention facility (now known to be Abu Ghraib prison). [17]

In March 2004, 6 soldiers in Abu Ghraib were charged with dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, and sexual abuse. 17 others were suspended from duty, including the seven U.S. officers who ran the prison. Also recommended for discipline was Brig. Gen Janis Karpinski, the commander of the 800th brigade. The Red Cross, which had access to these prisons, has stated that the instances of torture were not aberrations but were systemic. Some officers have attempted to defend themselves by saying that they were only doing their duty.

On May 14, 2004, reporters for the Guardian documented a coercive technique which soldiers called "bitch in a box". The prisoner was shoved into the trunk of a car on a hot day, and driven around until the prisoner was near ready to pass out. Another technique documented was "waterboarding", which involves holding a prisoner underwater until the prisoner believed he was about to drown. They also interviewed many soldiers not involved in the current scandal, who claimed that they were taught to use sleep deprivation, to stage mock executions, and to use other procedures. One platoon leader who objected to these practices was reportedly told that his stand could end his military career. [24]

In a scene described as "surreal" by AFP, it was found in mid May, 2004 that US troops were handing out cash to freed prisoners along with a note stating "You have not been mistreated.". A reporter visiting the prison Camp War Horse described the tour:

"Have you been mistreated?" the governor asks the detainees, dressed in orange boilersuits.

"No. We have never been tortured," chorused those behind bars as some 50 soldiers stood nearby.
[26]

August 2003

Eleven Iraqis were severely beaten by members of the SAS in Majar al Kabir. They were released and paid compensation for their injuries. [27]

August 4, 2003

Hassan Abbad Said died in custody, but no information of the investigation were made public. [28]

January 2004

January 3: Marwan Hassoun and his cousin Zaydun Al-Samarrai are taken from their broken-down truck at about curfew time and forced to jump from the Tharthar dam into the Tigris River; the latter drowns. First Lt. Jack M. Saville and Sgt. 1st Class Tracy E. Perkins were charged on 2004 June 7 with manslaughter, assault, conspiracy, false statements, and obstruction of justice. Sgt. Reggie Martinez was charged three weeks later with manslaughter and for making false statements, and Spec. Terry Bowman with assault and making false statements. [31] Martinez' and Bowman's charges were dropped; Perkins got six months in jail.[32]

April 2004

Eyewitness reports from residents fleeing the city, peace activists, and an aid worker from Doctors Without Borders [37] alleged that the tactics used by U.S. Marines in the siege of Fallujah were a violation of the laws of war and human rights. They alleged that Marine snipers targeted civilians and medical personnel ([38], [39], [40], [41], [42], [43]). Many newspaper reports indicated that a significant proportion of the casualties in Fallujah were women and children [44], [45], [46], [47], [48]. In a newspaper interview [49], a US sniper described Fallujah as "target-rich", and stated "as a sniper your goal is to completely demoralize the enemy". There were also reports that US and Spanish troops forced Fallujah hospitals to be evacuated when they were needed most urgently [50]. The U.S. military mostly denied the allegations, or refused to comment on them.

Three Iraqis working for Reuters were arrested, and allegedly beaten, taunted about their religion, and sexually abused. Reuters decided only to make it public after the US military refused to charge any soldiers in the incident. Two reported being forced to stick a finger into their anus and then lick it. Additionally, they were forced to put shoes in their mouth (a particularly humiliating gesture to Arabs). They were forced to make demeaning gestures as soldiers photographed them, were kept in stressful positions for long periods of time, and were threatened with being sent to Guantanamo. One was threatened with rape. "When I saw the Abu Ghraib photographs, I wept", said Salem Ureibi, one of the three interned reporters. "I saw that they had suffered like we had." [51] Reuters' Baghdad bureau chief, in an article in Editor and Publisher, stated "It should be noted that the bulk of their mistreatment occurred several hours AFTER I had informed the 82nd Airborne Division that they were Reuters staff. I have e-mail proof of this."
[edit]

Amnesty International report

Amnesty International reported that British soldiers had killed innocent civilians who were no threat, had kicked a prisoner to death and that the British military did not investigate the abuses appropriately. [54]
[edit]

Lieutenant Ilario Pantano

On April 14, 2004 Lieutenant Ilario Pantano of the United States Marine Corps, killed two unarmed captives. Lieutenant Pantano was later to claim that the captives had advanced on him in a threatening manner. But this contradicted the official statement he made to military investigators in June 2004. Further, in his June statement he explained that he had emptied two entire magazines into their bodies in order "to send a message". Lieutenant Pantano admitted to placing a warning over his captive's corpses. The officer who presided over his article 32 hearing recommended a court martial for his body desecration. But all charges against Lieutenant Pantano were dropped, and he was able to resign from the Marines with an honorable discharge

June 2004

The Pentagon confirms a report in the New York Times that CIA chief George Tenet was allowed by U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to have an Iraqi prisoner secretly detained at Camp Cropper in November, preventing the International Committee of the Red Cross from monitoring their treatment, a possible violation of the Geneva Conventions. [55]

On the 21st of December, the ACLU released further documents [61] documenting tortures. Notably, in a case of shooting of suspects without warning, Army commanders are reported to have interfered with the investigation. Procedures of autopsy of detainees who died in unclear circumstances have been canceled by battalion and group commands.

January 2005

On the 24th of January 2005, the ACLU accused the Pentagon of delibarately closing investigations over Human Rights violations and torture cases before they were over [63].

September 2005

In a report published by Human Rights Watch in September 2005, U.S. Troops are accused to routinely torture prisoners in Iraq. Two sergeants and a captain describe e.g. the breaking of a detainee’s leg, and applying chemical substances to detainees’ skin and eyes. Capt. Ian Fishback of the 82nd Airborne who made persistent efforts over 17 months to raise concerns about detainee abuse with his chain of command was consistently told to ignore abuses and to “consider your career.” When he made an appointment with Senate staff members of Senators John McCain and John Warner, he says his commanding officer denied him a pass to leave his base. [65] [66]

December 2005

John Pace, human rights chief for the United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq (UNAMI), told Reuters that there were an estimated 14,000 people being held in prison in Iraq contrary to UN Resolution 1546, according to which the US government claims legal permission to occupy Iraq. In a December 5, 2005, interview, Pace said,

"All [prisoners in Iraq] except those held by the Ministry of Justice are, technically speaking, held against the law because the Ministry of Justice is the only authority that is empowered by law to detain, to hold anybody in prison.

"Essentially none of these people have any real recourse to protection and therefore we speak ... of a total breakdown in the protection of the individual in this country.

"It's very rare to get judges ordering you to be released and effectively the police respecting that order.

"We have cases also where the judge who has ordered a group of people to be released, about 50-60 people, and the police, the Interior Ministry simply refuses.

"We have another case in another part of the country where the judge was actually the subject of reprisal for having found people not getting, as ordered, their release.

"The judge is now in jail.

"The judiciary has a lot to answer for in this country. It is really not carrying out its duties," he said, adding that bribes were sometimes paid for jobs in the judiciary and police.

"This is not denied," Pace said. "This is symptomatic of the corruption problems in this country and stands in the way of any kind of rule of law."
[69]

Investigations

Seymour Hersh, who exposed the Abu Ghraib scandal, and reports in Newsweek, has taken the case even further. [70] [71]. In 2003, Donald Rumsfeld instituted a policy that "encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq.". This policy stemmed from an earlier policy taken toward al-Qaeda prisoners. A memo to the Bush White House from councel Alberto Gonzales claimed that the new sort of war renders the Geneva Conventions' limitations on interrogating enemy prisoners "obsolete". The program was approved by the CIA, NSA, and the National Security Council. President George W. Bush was informed of it. The undersecretary of Defense for intelligence Steven Cambone administered the operation. His deputy, William Boykin, instructed the head of operations at Camp X-ray Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller to do the same at Abu Ghraib. Miller told Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski that the prison would now be dedicated to gathering intelligence. Douglas Feith and William Haynes were also involved in the operation.

On May 18, 2004, a military intelligence analyst named Samuel Provance came out to the press, stating "There's definitely a cover-up".

On May 19, 2004, a court martial hearing was held for Cpl. Charles A. Graner Jr., who has been accused of being the ringleader of the group employing torture at Abu Ghraib. In an unexpected move, all three key witnesses - Lt. Col. Steven L. Jordan, Capt. Donald J. Reese, and contractor Adel L. Nakhla - refused to testify. This is an almost unheard of action. Under court martial proceedings, one cannot refuse to testify unless they have a belief that they will be exposed to criminal charges for doing so. Consequently, it is likely that the investigative proceedings will be forced to move higher up the chain of command.
Provance, who ran a computer network used by military intelligence in the prison and who had been ordered not to speak to the press, told ABC News "Anything [the MPs] were to do legally or otherwise, they were to take those commands from the interrogators," and that the sexual humiliation began as a technique ordered by the investigators. He described several of the goings-on in the prison that he witnessed, such as the punching people in the neck hard enough to knock them unconscious after assuring them they weren't going to be hit, in order to catch them off guard. He also stated that Maj. Gen. George Fay, the Army's deputy chief of staff for intelligence, has shown little interest in investigating the interrogators and has gone only after the MPs, and that there is a culture of silence right now among those involved, who fear that if they say anything, the investigations will turn to them.
gato said:
Better yet...let me know when you can come up with a definition of torture that is actually torture
Wow, that's the crucial definition we've been waiting for? Well that's been more than met obviously.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
flavio said:
You can torture people if you do it in a bunker? Strike one.

Never said that. As usual, the obvious escapes you...

flavio said:
Usual tactic of attributing things to me that I didn't say. Strike two...

Your quote, not mine. If you didn't agree with it, you shouldn't have posted it...

flavio said:
Unsupported claim strike three. You're out.

Whats the matter? Can't find where they weren't punished, so you claim its unsubstantiated? Shows a complete lack of insight on military justice...In fact, the only proof you posted on the cold water torture was unsubstantiated as well. Too bad you didn't notice that in your rush to judgement.

flavio said:

Wikipedia.com...:rofl4:

flavio said:
Wow, that's the crucial definition we've been waiting for? Well that's been more than met obviously.

You still haven't posted anything like that coming from the US government, have you? It's been all innuendo and opinion...and any substantiated cases were punished according to your source, joke that it is...
 
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