Virginia Tech

Professur

Well-Known Member
Oh, one single biased account versus loads of data you label biased without any proof. Very smart.

*snicker* Spike, you make it too easy to even be fun. Data from who? It's biased by simple virtue of the fact that someone phrased a question to obtain it. Noone phrased any question to me. But, like I said before. The only opinions I really give a damn about are those of people who've been there. Have you had a gun shoved in your face? Fired at you? If so, then I'll happily give equal merit to your opinion. If not, you're blowing smoke out your ass about something you've no knowledge about. Just like 99% of the rest of the assholes with opinions.


Never heard about my country being born with missile launchers at convenience stores but that's interesting.

You're really struggling, Spike, if that's the extent of your retort.
 

spike

New Member
*snicker* Spike, you make it too easy to even be fun. Data from who? It's biased by simple virtue of the fact that someone phrased a question to obtain it.

:laugh: What the hell are you talking about? No question was phrased. It's not a matter of opinion. The stats I referenced where simply numbers of recorded gun deaths by country.

You're really struggling, Spike, if that's the extent of your retort.

Who's struggling here when your only answer to being able trust people to do anything they want is a vague false reference to "that's how your country was founded".
 

spike

New Member
Try again. What law did we break?

1-19 It shall be unlawful for any person, firm, corporation,
1-20 association, or partnership to offer for sale at retail or
1-21 wholesale, to use or explode or cause to be exploded, or
1-22 to possess, manufacture, or transport, or store any
1-23 fireworks, except as otherwise provided in this chapter."


http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/1995_96/leg/fulltext/hb1014.htm

There's licenses for surgery? I thought it was the surgeon that was licensed, not the surgery.

Yes, you must be licensed to perform surgery, but I suppose we should just trust people instead.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=487708

Rather than repeat what's already being said by others.


Spike, did you actually read and understand that drivvel? What exactly does it ban? I called ahead to the GA tourism board. While I waited, they called the state troopers to confirm that I could purchase, transport, and fire them off (under open fire regulations), just not sell them. That was good enough for me. Want the names of the people I spoke to? I might still have them somewhere.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
spike, in California & Arizona it's damned near a felony to posess or use fireworks. Seeing the damage is causes, it makes sense. Those are desert states. Even the NE side of Cali is arid.

Back here, most states have these laws & very few enforce them.
 

spike

New Member
All the information I'm seeing is that it's not even legal to set off sparklers in Georgia.

But the good State of Georgia limits 100% of it's population because maybe one or two morons who (according to evolution) shouldn't even be part of the gene pool ...might do something stupid with them.


How extensive is the problem?

* In 2003, four persons died and an estimated 9,300 were treated in emergency departments for fireworks-related injuries in the United States (Greene 2004).

How much do these injuries cost each year?

* In addition to medical costs directly and indirectly attributable to fireworks injuries, U.S. fire departments reported approximately 24,200 fireworks-related fires in 1999 that were estimated to have cost $17.2 million in direct property damage (NFPA 2002).


One or two people you say? :laugh:
 

RDX

Member
Statistics can be pushed many ways depending on how you want to group the data (and they can all be perfectly correct all at the same time). Here's part of a paper that I wrote a while ago (maybe 2002?); so the data since then has changed some I'm sure.

"..Proponents are quick to point figures such as the ranking of the United States in firearm deaths. 14.05 out of 100,000 deaths are caused by firearms. Although a few other nations, such as Columbia (55.85 firearm deaths per 100,000 people) are worse off than the United States, there is a clear divide between the frequency of firearm deaths in the United States and other industrialized countries. Canada’s rate is 4.08 gun related deaths per 100,000 people, Germany’s: 1.47, the United Kingdom’s 0.48, France 0.67 (United Nations 106-107). Clearly we are at the head of the pack in this regard.

However, a breakdown of these figures shows some very interesting facets. While most people usually consider homicides to be the leading factor in these figures, reality lies elsewhere. The leading cause of firearm deaths in the United States is from suicide. Only 44% of gun deaths in the United States are from homicides. The majority of deaths are inflicted by the perpetrator on himself. Critics point out that if the guns aren’t available, the suicide rates would drop in step with the homicide rates; after all, about 63% of all suicides in the United States involve firearms (United Nations 55). Won’t people find other means to kill themselves though, if guns aren’t available? One may argue that the ease and quickness of using a gun increases the occurrence of unplanned suicides, where the victim shoots himself in a brief moment of despair. Studies have shown however, that the vast majority of suicides are planned out, with at least a day of preparation or deliberation (LaFollette 60). In addition, it is quite apparent that suicide rates are not related to gun availability or firearm homicides. Germany’s suicide rate, 15.8 deaths per 100,000 people, is over 10 times as large as its overall homicide rate, but less than 8% of suicides involved firearms. Japans suicide rate, 17.95 deaths per 100,000 people, one of the largest among in industrialized nations, dwarfs its firearm homicide rate, 0.03 deaths per 100,000 people, by a factor of almost 600! Yet only 0.22 percent of those suicides involved firearms. France and Canada, and Australia all have relatively high suicide rates (greater than 13 deaths per 100,000 people), yet the number of these deaths resulting from firearms is below 20% (in France’s case, below 5%). Clearly, gun availability does not affect suicide rates in any meaningful way. Just because over 60% of suicides in the United States use firearms, does not imply in any way that the overall suicide rate would change if the guns were not available.

Let’s for a moment ignore the factor of guns and just look at the homicide and suicide rates of different countries compared to ours. The rate of intended human deaths (suicides + homicides) in the United States would be about 17 deaths per 100,000 people. For comparison Germany’s would be 16.2 deaths per 100,000 people, Japan’s would be 17.97 per 100,000 people, Canada’s: 13.5 deaths per 100,000 people, France’s 18.1 deaths per 100,000 people, Switzerland’s: 21.8 deaths per 100,000 people, Finland’s rate: 28.1 deaths per 100,000 people, the United Kingdom’s: 7.68 (United Nations 108-109, 112-113). Does the fact that the majority of these deaths in the United States involve firearms make our problem any worse than any of these other nations? Although America is considered by many to be much more dangerous and violent than other industrialized nations, the truth is, we are right in the middle of the pack. Guns do not create the problem; they are merely used more often in the United States because of their availability.

Although our problem with homicides and suicides may not be as pronounced as some would make it out to be, the question at the core of the debate remains: would fewer guns in circulation in the United States lower overall crime rates? Historically, murder rates in the United States have varied quite extensively. Estimates of murder rates before the 1920s range from between 1-6 people per 100,000; however, there is wide consensus that the rate peaked in 1933 at about 10 per 100,000 people. The rate decreased progressively until just after World War II, when is rose slightly. It declined again until it hit a low point in 1958 at about 4.5 per 100,000 deaths. The murder rate remained steady until about 1965, where it began to rise rapidly. By 1972 the murder rate had risen to around 9/100,000. The rate remained virtually flat until 1982, when is declined marginally until 1986 where it rose again. By 1991, United States murder rate stood at 10/100,000. Soon thereafter the rate declined, this process has only accelerated with time. By 1998 the homicide rate stood at 6.3/100,000 down 30% from the 1991 rate (Vizzard 13). Explanations of this recent decline in murder rates overflow. Gun control advocates state the Brady law; on the other side, opponents credit the decline to relaxed restrictions on carrying concealed weapons. California politicians cite their three strikes policy. Police chiefs nationwide are quick to mention innovative police department strategies. It is of interest to note that this decline applied to almost every part of the country as well as Canada, hinting that a single factor would not explain the homicide rate reduction (Vizzard 16).

Anti- gun control lobbyists focus on two main reasons not to ban or further restrict firearms: self defense, and the second amendment. First let’s take a look at self defense. In 1975 a study by four Cleveland physicians concluded that the risk to a person housing a gun exceeded any benefit derived from the self defense provided (Cothran 34 ). The gist of this argument is that guns kept in the home are far more likely to be used in accidents or suicides rather than against crimes. The problem with this assessment remain quite apparent; while suicide statistics and firearm accidents numbers are reasonably reliable and easy to access, the data of guns used in self defense remains quite elusive. Attempts to estimate the number of incidents where firearms are used disrupt crime have yielded a wide range of results. Estimates of defensive gun uses (DGU) annually range from 50,000 up to 2.5 million annually. Given the wide range of estimates, it’s quite difficult to estimate firearms effectiveness in stopping violent acts. Using the figures given by the Department of Justice in its National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), we can place a rough estimate on the extents of DGUs. The survey estimates that between 64,000 and 85,000 DGUs take place per year in the United States. The survey found that 15.7 percent of the respondents reported that the DGU “almost certainly” prevented the attacker from killing them or any person; an additional 14.2 percent said the DGU “probably” saved their life or a life of another. Using the low end figure of 64,000, we can estimate that approximately 30% of DGUs almost certainly or at least probably save the life of the victim. That comes out to a bit over 19,000 lives possibly saved per year from defensive gun uses. With about 23,500 homicides per year in the United States, this number is quite significant (Vizzard 17-19). While gun control advocates respond to these figures, stating that respondents are quick to categorize the DGU as life threatening, when in fact, it isn’t. Even if this claim is partially true, it is quite apparent that DGUs play a significant role in interrupting violent crimes. Furthermore, most studies have a much higher estimation of the number of DGUs annually; it’s quite hard to ignore the fact that the 19,000 lives possibly saved per year could quite well be a low end figure..."
 

spike

New Member
Interesting although your paper didn't address some issues.

Residents of homes where a gun is present are 5 times more likely to experience a suicide than residents of homes without guns

research has shown that a gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder

Research by Dr. Arthur Kellerman has shown that keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl/guns.htm

Murders (per capita) by country

Firearm Homicides and Suicides by country (a pro gun site even)

We're not exactly in the middle of the pack.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
It's really simple.

One of, in fact the second, the personal rights unconditionally held by Americans, is the right to own guns.

By the same token, you have the right NOT to own them.

Pick one. I did.
 

spike

New Member
Actually the Constitution isn't so clear on that.

And, just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it a good idea.

So, no it's not that simple.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
Yeah, only one or two people get hurt with fireworks every year. Glad to see you guys enjoyed breaking the law though as if it didn't apply to you. Seems a little hypocritical considering you're previous stance on speed limits but OK.

I'm sure some unlicensed surgery goes fine also. You want we should eliminate that requirement too?


Well you see spike, there's this little thing called a permit one can get here.
Same as almost all parts of gov, you can buy almost anything.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
The 2nd says the right of the people shall not be infringed. Sounds quite clear to me, especially in light of the fact it's set in stone with a group of pesonal rights, taking it away from the military argument.

Cat-because of the above, there should be no "permits". You are permitted by the Constitution.

To avoid the unnecesasry argument, crazies & criminals would not be allowed to carry due to their rights being diminished due to their condition.
 

SouthernN'Proud

Southern Discomfort
It's really simple.

One of, in fact the second, the personal rights unconditionally held by Americans, is the right to own guns.

By the same token, you have the right NOT to own them.

Pick one. I did.

And picking C, "I don't therefore you can't", is not an option.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
Spikey, I am wondering if you feel there is any situation in which you could willingly end somebody's life?

how many times have YOU made that choice?

i've never had to. i don't think i'd hesitate, and i've had plenty of trigger time to build confidence (assuming the involvement of a firearm), but i still wonder if i'd pause before killing a mofo, regardless of situation.
 

Cerise

Well-Known Member
how many times have YOU made that choice?

i've never had to. i don't think i'd hesitate, and i've had plenty of trigger time to build confidence (assuming the involvement of a firearm), but i still wonder if i'd pause before killing a mofo, regardless of situation.


I've never been in the circumstances, but if it meant life or death to myself or my loved ones lives, I wouldn't hesitate.
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
My speculation is based on personal experience. I was held up at gunpoint, and shot at, in a country with much stricter gun laws than yours .... with an illegal weapon no less. I'll wager on that versus any biased statistics you care to produce.

and if you'd had a gun at the time, we wouldn't be having this conversation....'cause you'd be dead.
 
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